Sailing Centre's

Jono Garton · 14 June 2006, 17:20

One of our trade customers asked me to do a one day hand over with a 28ft Sports Boat Today. The chap had recently completed a Level 2 at a local "sailing centre".

We left the channel at one of the local ports, the first question was "What are the green buoys for?". I thought something was strange and there may be a possibility the guys got learning difficulties? But no, it turns out the guy had paid £185 for two 3 hour sessions in a 5m rib. The centre had not covered tides, IRPCS, rules of the road, slow manoeuvres, charts, nav, he had never put the boat on a pontoon. He was however good at bowlines (the instructor had spent 1 hour showing him various knots).

How do these guys get RYA recognition???

Poly · 14 June 2006, 17:40

the green buoys are there to keep the red ones company!

out of interest what did you suggest he does (other than go on one of your courses)? will he be complaining to the centre or the RYA? He spent an hour tying knots, and two 3 hour sessions on a rib (during which it would appear he didn't perform any maneouvres!) so what did they do for the rest of the "theory" time?

do the RYA engage people as "mystery shoppers" to validate the quality of the training at their centres - or is it all done as pre-arranged audits etc? in which case you wheel out the best instructors and check the syllabus and manuals properly before the sessions.

Jimbo · 14 June 2006, 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polwart

do the RYA engage people as "mystery shoppers" to validate the quality of the training at their centres

Yes, they do, but they have lots of centres to check, and some get missed/haven't been got around to yet!

Poly · 14 June 2006, 18:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimbo

Yes, they do, but they have lots of centres to check, and some get missed/haven't been got around to yet!

I realise that. But they will be able to target their shoppers if there is a centre with complaints. I am willing to be a mystery shopper and provide FOC top class customer feedback for anyone wanting it on Advanced or Intermediate courses - if you pay my course fees

; I can also supply one lady wife as mystery shopper for a level 2 course

Doug Stormforce · 14 June 2006, 18:34

come on then Jono, who was the local centre?? Dish the dirt

Jono Garton · 14 June 2006, 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polwart

out of interest what did you suggest he does

I didnt mention they had done anything wrong and booked him in for another day, whats a few hundred quid when your in a £90'000 boat???

I cant dish the dirt but the instructor worked for me for two days, he was booked to do a own boater level 2 for me. At the end of the second day he reported back to me and said the customer was very happy and he may come back a do a level 2. I'd clearly stated it was a own boat level 2 in the first place. I ended up doing another 2 days free !

Jono

Andy_Rs600 · 14 June 2006, 22:19

I can relate to this.

I was introduced to someone the other day who had a safety boat certificate from a well respected UK centre. I took them out for an assesment, as is our club policy, before they were allowed to drive our safety boat.

After, dragging the tube down the pontoon while leaving it, having to have holding off explained to them, and then doing a fair attempt at picking up a mooring bouy, downwind (on a resevoir) i started to ask a few more questions!

David Hickman · 15 June 2006, 07:15

Unfortunately, these are the sorts of centres that quite a few of use are competing against!
Mystery customer are sometimes used, and random inspections without any prior noticed ARE carried out and all RYA centres are made aware of this.
All centres are inspected up to a maximum of 1 1/2 years after the last. Inspections should include some instruction demonstrations but this is not always possible.
Anyone who has any complaints about training centres, standard of kit, instructors etc MUST contact the RYA head office. Bad centres give ALL centres a bad name!!

Complaints ARE Dealt with and the centre will be contacted.

Trust the relevent people have been informed JONO?

whitingiom · 20 June 2006, 12:10

Speaking from personal experience I have actually undergone two Level 2 courses at different centres. One was conducted in a Humber 4m with 25hp engine, the other in a Tornado 5m with 40hp. One was in a marina base, so there was plenty of practice at low speed handling, coming alongside pontoon, turning with aid of warps etc. The other was on an exposed seaside slip in a crosswind - far more tricky.

However BOTH Instructors were highly skilled, good deliverers and ensured I (and my son who was 14/15 at the time) could do everything before we moved on to the next item.

Admittedly I had RYA Yachtmaster theory before doing the powerboat course, so not much time was spent on buoyage, rules of road, tides etc. for me, but they were all explained in detail to the boy.

My safety boat assessment was done in the open sea, F5-6, 1.5m swell - I reckon it would be much easier on a reservoir? However given the nature of these courses, it is inevitable that some people will 'pass' on a millpond and only find out about the waves later.

If I had a recommendation it would be for the Safety Boat course to include RYA sailing 1 & 2, as there are a few safetyboaters out there with sore heads from unexpected cracks from the boom. Also new safety boaters should go out with an experienced driver for a couple of trips when moving from inland to sea.

Cheers

Jelly · 23 June 2006, 08:43

Greetings Whitingiom
I follow your points and this is why there is the coastal endorsement on the L2. As for safety boat I personally think it is a good step up from the old L3 ticket but I still think the old L4 was much harder.
That could of been we only did them mid winter in F3 and above in the sea. I understand that these were combined

If you have any issues with poor instruction or poor centers then call Paul Mara a call
Motor/Power Scheme 0845 345 0326 (Local rate)
023 8060 4188 (National)
Rgds
James

wavelength · 22 July 2006, 21:36

There's a lot of it about! Girl on L2 instructor course elsewhere for which I went and did the moderation told me that a notation for 7.2 metres on the chart actually meant it was 7 metres deep at high water and 2metres deep at low water! Not a clue on bouyage, variation etc. She had done a level 2, an advanced and two days of an instructor course at three different coastal centres around the country and basically knew nothing. So confident was she in her knowledge and ability that she argued the point when I told her her knowledge was sadly lacking and she had to pass as she had a course for 6 people booked for her to teach the next weekend! Hmm madam I dont think so I'm afraid!

Jono Garton · 23 July 2006, 16:34

I Know what you mean. The other things that bugs me is the amount of Powerboat Instructors that can only drive RIBS and havn't got a clue about hard boats, there should be a section od an instructor course on hard boats.

Also on another note where would an Examiner draw the line on classrooms??? we have now a local centre in a beach hut with no toilet or showers and somone using their front room as a classroom.

Jono

DM · 24 July 2006, 00:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jono Garton

we have now a local centre in a beach hut with no toilet or showers and somone using their front room as a classroom.

That's a nice piece of misinformation if ever there was. There's a career waiting for you as a spin doctor for the labour party now that Alistair Campbell has retired.

For the record, the beach hut is a superb location on Abersoch beach for a vibrant sailing school. www.abersochsailing school.co.uk They also have access to toilets/showers as per RYA guidelines and have recently passed their RYA annual inspection.

The front room comment is directed at me and our new centre in Pwllheli which has also passed a recent RYA inspection with flying colours.

What Mr. Garton neglects to say is that you can enjoy en suite accomodation in a guest house run by ribsters, a good breakfast and straight into a fully equipped classroom with an excellent range of teaching aids and equipment .

DM

jwalker · 24 July 2006, 08:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by wavelength

...Not a clue on bouyage, variation etc. She had done a level 2, an advanced and two days of an instructor course at three different coastal centres around the country and basically knew nothing.....

Perhaps she was thi....er, challenged.

wavelength · 24 July 2006, 19:42

Quote:

somone using their front room as a classroom.

and the point is what? If he does a good course, is insured correctly and the customers are happy -and someone makes a good brew well fair enough.
As far as the hard boat bit is concerned all instructors start somewhere and their experience grows-its very easy to pull the ladder up after getting the ticket. If the rib man teaches in ribs and is good at it then the job is done. Different folk have different skills for different clients-a diver is best equipped for teaching diving clients as he knows the problems. People who are not aware of the problems faced by sea anglers launching small cuddy boats thru breakers and having to return to the same open beach during winter cod fishing should not be teaching them-it is far different to normal ribbing and a mile away from using a big hardboat. I do have a problem with folk who get a level 2 ticket-go immediatly for an instructors course and then start teaching in their own boat with no experience of working at different centres to see the good and the bad practises. We had someone on here wanting to do that just recently did we not with an obvious lack of knowledge. On the hard boat thing-I'll put a post on re my daughters recent escapades to show how some young instructors are exceptionally good at hardboats

Poly · 24 July 2006, 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmanning

What Mr. Garton neglects to say is that you can enjoy en suite accomodation in a guest house run by ribsters, a good breakfast and straight into a fully equipped classroom with an excellent range of teaching aids and equipment .

Nice bit of marketing there! Certainly sounds more appealing than the portacabin with tressel tables where I did my L2. Although surely the centre is secondary to the time spend on the water, quality of instruction (and in my opinion student to instructor ratio) and boats used. I was surprised that it was possible to get a L2 without driving displacement craft as well as planing craft.

tim griffin · 24 July 2006, 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmanning

What Mr. Garton neglects to say is that you can enjoy en suite accomodation in a guest house run by ribsters, a good breakfast and straight into a fully equipped classroom with an excellent range of teaching aids and equipment .

DM

Sounds perfect to me
Wake up shower, Breakfast, walk a couple of feet to the classroom .
Perhaps a touch of the green eyed monster there Jono
You should try operating in the Solent Jono, now this is where the real competition is, but even so most of us get along fine even push clients each others way when we are booked up .
And try and remember Jono you were once a Instructor with not much experience yourself , it takes time to develop the skills needed for different types of boats and some Instructors will only ever work with Ribs don't mean to say they are no good though does it.

wavelength · 24 July 2006, 20:19

Quote:

If I had a recommendation it would be for the Safety Boat course to include RYA sailing 1 & 2,

safety boat crews/instructors should really be sailors of some sort to appreciate the tricks of the wind on sails. We had a lifeboat crew injured a few weeks ago when a windsurfing rig took him by surprise when they turned it into the wind and it flipped on them. An experienced sailor/ windsurfer would no doubt have been more ready for the violence the sail came over with cos it was certainly blowin a hoolie at the time and most windsurfers have had a crack from the rig on a few occassions to remind them of the consequences of backing the rig upwind

laser · 24 July 2006, 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by tim griffin

You should try operating in the Solent Jono,

He did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tim griffin

now this is where the real competition is,

I suspect he would be in agreement with you here Tim.

Poly · 24 July 2006, 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by wavelength

safety boat crews/instructors should really be sailors of some sort to appreciate the tricks of the wind on sails. We had a lifeboat crew injured a few weeks ago when a windsurfing rig took him by surprise when they turned it into the wind and it flipped on them. An experienced sailor/ windsurfer would no doubt have been more ready for the violence the sail came over with cos it was certainly blowin a hoolie at the time and most windsurfers have had a crack from the rig on a few occassions to remind them of the consequences of backing the rig upwind

Plenty experienced sailors have been taken by surprise by the boom too. Perhaps this needs covered (maybe it is, i'm not rya safety boat trained) in the SB training - although there are likely so many other things to think about it is easy to forget the invisible one.

Personally though (as a former dinghy sailor) I always preferred SB crews who were more focussed on what they do with the powerboat and their safety responsibilities rather than those who were frustrated sailors stuck in a rib for the day. Also remember that the SB course is supposed to be for canooing, wind surfing etc - surely we can't expect them to all be BCU 2* trained, and windsurf trained etc too. I would rather they used that time to improve their boat handling, rescue/recovery skills and first aid. The latter is particularly important IMHO. And in my experience rarely at the level you might expect and probably never practiced in the three years between requalifying.