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Old 14 December 2009, 07:31   #41
DM
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What in the world makes you think that the RYA Advanced Powerboat syllabus is appropriate....
That's the exact opposite of what I think. Read the post! There's lots of people out there working windfarms, construction, coastal rides, survey etc on RYA commercially endorsed advanced or yachtmaster tickets. I don't think the current syllabus prepares them adequately.

I also think you're losing too much heat from your head. Try wearing that Balaclava you nicked from me. Back to front would be nice.


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plus a bit of ancillary stuff like Sea Survival, VHF, First aid etc.
Yep. But no fire fighting and the diesel and radar courses are optional. I'd add all these to the endorsement requirement.
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Old 14 December 2009, 07:38   #42
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That's the exact opposite of what I think. Read the post!
OK, I'll rephrase that.

What in the world makes you think that the RYA Advanced Powerboat syllabus should be appropriate for this sort of work?

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There's lots of people out there working windfarms, construction, coastal rides, survey etc on RYA commercially endorsed advanced or yachtmaster tickets. I don't think the current syllabus prepares them adequately.
I agree. It doesn't. That's because it is not the right qualification for the job.

Just because it includes the word "commercial" doesn't mean it's suitable. Why are employers taking people on to do this work on the basis of an inadequate qualification?
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Old 14 December 2009, 07:57   #43
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What in the world makes you think that the RYA Advanced Powerboat syllabus should be appropriate for this sort of work?
Don't blame me. I didn't make the rules up.


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Why are employers taking people on to do this work on the basis of an inadequate qualification?
I dunno. Best ask them. Might be because they're cheaper than people with STCW tickets.

And will you please stop altering your posts after you've pressed the submit button. It's sneaky and unbecoming a person of your standing in the Rib community.
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Old 14 December 2009, 08:05   #44
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As Jimbo has said, common sense isnít something you can really teach. However, it is something I think you can examine; a new pass or fail course/exam type thing I think would weed out a lot of less-than-able skippers.
But then you are back to relying on someone else's judgement again (who tested the candidate when they were fully expecting it, in probably artificial circumstances, around a relatively predictable range of possibilities - such is the nature of exams, that you can learn/train to pass them).

DM - are you suggesting that if I pop off to a local friendly training school and get myself a commercially endorsed APB certificate that you'll give me a job doing the sort of challenging work you describe? Oh - better still are any of your windfarms close to the shore (within 3 miles of your NDP?) I could save myself money and just get my PB2 commercially endorsed.
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Old 14 December 2009, 08:20   #45
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DM - are you suggesting that if I pop off to a local friendly training school and get myself a commercially endorsed APB certificate that you'll give me a job doing the sort of challenging work you describe?
No, I wouldn't without evidence of experience but some do.

I wouldn't give you a job anyway. You talk too much

ps. Love your tag line
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Old 14 December 2009, 08:35   #46
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No, I wouldn't without evidence of experience but some do.
I'm glad to hear it. So does this cause you a problem because they can undercut you? or are you just a concerned citizen? If the RYA is not going to change the syllabus (and a radical rewrite seems unlikely) - should responsible opperators not be lobbying the MCA to increase the requirements for some types of work? Or getting together as others do to create a voluntary code of practice - and lobbying the customers to demand compliance with the voluntary code. Do responsible customers not want good contractors anyway as it presumbly means they get more reliable service, less damage to wind farm towers, less risk of hurting personnel, etc.
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I wouldn't give you a job anyway. You talk too much
That's possibly the least offensive reason anyone's given!
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Old 14 December 2009, 09:16   #47
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But then you are back to relying on someone else's judgement again (who tested the candidate when they were fully expecting it, in probably artificial circumstances, around a relatively predictable range of possibilities - such is the nature of exams, that you can learn/train to pass them).
Fair point, but my experience of powerboat trainers and advanced examiners is that they are normally extremely well qualified, and judge who they’re examining very fairly.

With reference to my previous post, I'll give you some of the examples of stupidity I've come across over the course of this summer. Some were working for me, some were at other charter companies:
-2 stroke oil put in a 4-stroke outboard
-4 stroke oil put in a 2-stroke outboard (oil bottle was later found in a locker on the boat, it even had a photo of a moped on it)
-boat run with bilge (and I don't just mean the bilge well) full of water (someone hadn't put the bung back in the bilge-well.) If a boat feels sluggish would you not look behind you to see if there was any water in there. Result was about £200 of fuel being used on a short job.
-Skipper couldn't start boat, asks for advice. "Is there fuel in the boat" I asked - they confirm there is definitely fuel in the boat and they've primed the engine. I drive 50 mile round trip to go and investigate the problem only to discover there is no fuel in the tank; switch to spare tank, prime bulb, engine starts. Skipper couldn't tell the difference between a priming bulb that was pumping air instead of fuel (fuel gauge was also reading empty but I can forgive that as the gauge was as reliable as, well, the skipper.)
-Skipper told not to trim the engine up in the chop. Skipper trimmed engine right up in the chop, saddle bracket broke, engine left dangling by assorted hoses/cables.
-Skipper tied hard boat to harbour wall with bow line at high tide, tide went down, boat didn’t. Boat found at 90 degrees with outboard underwater.

This ones not so relevant as it could have been anyone really, but is probably the best one so I'll put it anyway -Commercial skipper/instructor borrows boat off duty. Brings boat back drunk in the dark, and runs out of fuel. Anchors, calls coastguard for assistance. Decides he's going swimming to pass the time until the lifeboat arrives. Safety first.

All of these incidents happened as a result, in my opinion, because of the incompetence of the skipper. Of course, we all have a bad day sometimes and make mistakes (buy me a drink and I'll tell you a story involving a jaffa, a denim skirt and an Isle of Wight ferry), but I think when you are supposed to have an advanced ticket or are a PBI, knowing the difference between things like 2 or 4 stroke oil is fairly fundamental.
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Old 14 December 2009, 10:31   #48
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Just a thought, why not have new Commercial Skippers 'on Probation' for a number of hours and signed off after every job

Then Commercial organisations would know that that the Skipper was newley qualified and maybe take extra care in breifing on the task in hand

Very rarely do skippers on thier CV mention real experience only the Qualifications. Its only when I assess them do they mention that they are a coxwain of a lifeboat or have worked in the North Sea

Helpful Comments could also be put into the log if a skipper was lacking experience or skill in certain area
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Old 14 December 2009, 10:34   #49
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Fair point, but my experience of powerboat trainers and advanced examiners is that they are normally extremely well qualified, and judge who theyíre examining very fairly.
yes but my point was you will still want to judge the person's competence to do the job you want in the environment you want. You're arguing about a completely different type of professional competence than RW and DM. They are actually talking about boat driving skills/awareness/perception. You are mostly referring to ancillary stuff.

I could probably go through and argue the 'case for the defence' in each of those situations. I won't because I don't know all the details - but perhaps the briefing wasn't adequate. Mixing up oils is stupid - but so is putting diesel in petrol cars etc - and it happens all the time, even with professional drivers. Did you advertise for and interview them on their boat maintainence skills or just assume because they work with boats they would be experienced in the maintainence.

Do your opperating procedures include familiarising new people with the boats, ensuring they understand the type of engine used and the process for obtaining oils etc. Do you have a pre-departure check list for things like bungs, empty bilge well, fuel levels etc. Does your passage plan highlight the tide state at lunch stops (I assume its just as possible you get stuck in some place for lunch as left hanging from a rope)...

These are all management controls that you can put in to reduce your risk, what DM and RW are seeking is a higher level of experience/competence/training which is something that requires skill and can't be dealt with easily by a process checklist.

You've done the APB course/exam - so you know what was and wasn't required so can reasonably be expected to understand the limits of knowledge that a skipper might have.

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Of course, we all have a bad day sometimes and make mistakes (buy me a drink and I'll tell you a story involving a jaffa, a denim skirt and an Isle of Wight ferry),
there's a pint waiting for you here, by the time you get here it should be warm and flat - just the way the English like it!.
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Old 14 December 2009, 12:16   #50
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Lot of nonsense been said here.

The code/law/regs. quite clearly state
Quote:
Responsibility of the Owner/Managing Agent for Safe Manning of the Vessel
It is the responsibility of the owner/managing agent to ensure that the skipper, and where necessary, the crew of the vessel have, in addition to any qualifications required, recent and relevant experience of the type and size of vessel, the machinery on the vessel, and the type of operation in which the vessel is engaged. The owner/managing agent should also ensure that there are sufficient additional crew on board having regard to the type and duration of voyage/excursion being undertaken.
Don't try passing the buck to the RYA, they manage the generic ticket to drive boats not the specifics of each and every job, it is up to employers to train their staff or ensure they are familiar with the specific craft and what is role required of them.

As far as radar goes the code basically says

In any vessel fitted with radar, skipper and crew who will use it should be trained in its use.

I think the ticket is very fit for purpose, it does not insist on you having diesel training if you will have an engineer on board or are going to work on petrol boats, it does not rely on you being examined on radar use if you will never use a radar set . Making people train in areas they would not use would make the ticket NOT FIT FOR PURPOSE.

Itís not the ticket thatís wrong. It does not claim running maintenance or knowledge of all vessels. It is the employers recruitment and training process that has failed them.

With the greatest respect if you advertise

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If you are a commercially endorsed advanced skipper and/or you have a coded RIB available at any point during Cowes week please send me a PM with details of your qualifications/boat and your mobile number.
OR

Quote:
Are there any out there who arn't booked for Cowes week? If so, email me
2 days before the busiest week in the season then it is unlikly your staff are going to know what is going on.

Not having a go at a particular operator (far from it) just giving an example.
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