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Old 13 December 2009, 17:24   #31
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Something I haven't made fully clear - the replies you've had haven't been from the target group you wanted (which isn't my problem!) but they are valid and worthwhile nonetheless, because....

RYA Examiners, Trainers, Instructors, and therefore newly qualified skippers and potential skippers undergoing training all examine, train to teach, teach, and therefore learn, what the RYA syllabus dictates (within the natural scope for deviation, addition, common sense, and specific examples). Therefore, I wouldn't disregard the comments from the Examiners, Trainers, and Instructors on this thread, as they (we) are the ones passing this on to students, so have in effect answered your questions, as it's a logical chain.
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Old 13 December 2009, 17:42   #32
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During the assessment there will be some checks on safety awareness but only on a "sampling" basis, it isn't feasible in the time to ask questions about everything (although having said that, if I felt that a candidate may not have quite the safety approach that I would expect, I would certainly spend more time exploring it)
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...I do ask questions of the students, for open discussion, on things like dealing with incidents at sea, what you say to the pregnant lady that's been put on your Rib by a charter boss that insists "it'll be fine" and what you do when you start taking on water mid course...
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...I try to teach and encourage my candidates to develop an attitude to safety that is based on principles rather than examples or specifics. I think it's important for them to consider all of the things that they can think of that might go wrong (and I'll add in any obvious ones they miss) and build strategies to deal with them should the worst happen. I certainly wouldn't want to think that their reaction would stop at "Bloody hell, we didn't cover this on the course!"

So we throw in lots of surprise scenarios during our courses: for example "Purely for exercise purposes, there's smoke pouring out from under the engine cover. What are you going to do?", or "Talk me through what you'd do if one of your passengers collapsed unconscious here?", or "What's the worst thing that you can think of going wrong at the moment?"

Risk assessments are important, and we include those of course, but we don't expect that we'll anticipate very possible problem and we also want people to be able to think on their feet
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Originally Posted by tim griffin (Examiner) View Post
...safety is a big part of the exam but not every situation can be covered but safe practice and management of the boat and it's crew is one thing we are looking for.
The Injuries you mention would have been covered on a First Aid course a prerequisite for the Advanced Powerboat Course . Regarding breakdowns common sense is required to keep the boat and crew safe at all times by what ever action is appropriate for the conditions but the VHF DSC course will cover summoning assistance via either May Day or Pan Pan also a prerequisite for the Advanced Powerboat Course .
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This is not needed just better training IE the Advanced course better safety briefings for rough weather , a hand signal from passengers to indicate a problem and helm to act on it , better emergency action plans and normal operating procedures for such rides . An understanding of how the boat is affected by rough sea conditions if a aft helm centre helm or forward helm
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Originally Posted by C2 RIBS (Commercial Skipper) View Post
...I always look for ways to ensure maximum safety for clients and other boat users which is paramount and we should all develop and learn from others experiences, mistakes etc. Again it does not answer your original question but safety is first and second in my book.
Looks like this cross section of boating (which doesn't include a newly qualified skipper) has
a) Answered questions on what their students/candidates can expect from them
b) Taken on board new suggestions, whether from the MAIB reports, or directly as a result of your thread.
You are achieving your aim of making things safer, whether directly or indirectly. Anything that is not happening, or that you don't think is happening, but should be, and any new ideas you may have outside specific MAIB reports - send some feedback to the right person, and get some 'official' answers.

One of the RYAs PB Examiners is also an investigator for the MAIB, so there is another definite communication route there - I am sure he has passed on feedback and suggestions.
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Old 13 December 2009, 17:59   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo View Post
Something I haven't made fully clear - the replies you've had haven't been from the target group you wanted (which isn't my problem!) but they are valid and worthwhile nonetheless, because....

RYA Examiners, Trainers, Instructors, and therefore newly qualified skippers and potential skippers undergoing training all examine, train to teach, teach, and therefore learn, what the RYA syllabus dictates (within the natural scope for deviation, addition, common sense, and specific examples). Therefore, I wouldn't disregard the comments from the Examiners, Trainers, and Instructors on this thread, as they (we) are the ones passing this on to students, so have in effect answered your questions, as it's a logical chain.
That statement is worthy of a Yes Minister script!

At least Dougie seems to have a clue whats going on.although I'd regard 6 months as a torporific rather than a kneejerk reaction. One things for sure the lady passenger won't be having any knee jerk reactions for a while

Thank you for telling me how I should think but I'think I'll disregard it

I've started a similar thread without mentioning the RYA. i hope that's ok
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Old 13 December 2009, 18:01   #34
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I've started a similar thread without mentioning the RYA. i hope that's ok
You can do what you like (and do) but I'm honestly amazed you've posted a question on a public forum, knowing many of the people who keep an eye on the commercial section, and are suprised they've pitched in! Perhaps you should ask JK to implement a new control so you can restrict commenting to only those that fit your stringent requirements...

Hopefully your second thread will magically find the people you're looking for, it will be useful to see how their comments differ from the ones you've already got.
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Old 13 December 2009, 18:39   #35
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I am not patronising you
Yes you were........



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! Perhaps you should ask JK to implement a new control so you can restrict commenting to only those that fit your stringent requirements..
.......and you're still at it.

I think what you'll find he's getting at is the amount of injuries caused to ancillary offshore staff (electricians, steel erectors, IT staff, essentially non boaty people) being injured due to adv comm drivers ragging the boats as if they're on adrenaline rides. Instructors, no matter how qualified are probably not the best to answer the question unless they've got commercial experience.

That may be a crass statement to make but it might be interesting to see how many have experience of putting a boat against a windtower in a 2-3m sea, how many have experience of coming alongside a mother ship which is moving at 3-4 knots for crew transfer, how many have experience of laying an anchor for a bigger boat, how many have experience of loading passengers within a surf line etc etc. These are all instances of tasks you may be asked to carry out as a commercial driver so you'd expect the person teaching you would have experience of these things

These are all tasks which an advanced commercially endorsed boat driver might be expected to carry out. Jimbo is teaching these people. Perhaps he might tell us of his own experience of these disciplines.
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Old 13 December 2009, 18:59   #36
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Yes you were........





.......and you're still at it.

I think what you'll find he's getting at is the amount of injuries caused to ancillary offshore staff (electricians, steel erectors, IT staff, essentially non boaty people) being injured due to adv comm drivers ragging the boats as if they're on adrenaline rides. Instructors, no matter how qualified are probably not the best to answer the question unless they've got commercial experience.

That may be a crass statement to make but it might be interesting to see how many have experience of putting a boat against a windtower in a 2-3m sea, how many have experience of coming alongside a mother ship which is moving at 3-4 knots for crew transfer, how many have experience of laying an anchor for a bigger boat, how many have experience of loading passengers within a surf line etc etc. These are all instances of tasks you may be asked to carry out as a commercial driver so you'd expect the person teaching you would have experience of these things

These are all tasks which an advanced commercially endorsed boat driver might be expected to carry out. Jimbo is teaching these people. Perhaps he might tell us of his own experience of these disciplines.
I've just reread the whole thread again - and your comments help to clarify what Stu is possibly getting at. But Stu knows that the course hasn't undergone a major revamp. From your comments the APB qualification doesn't sound fit for the purposes you highlight - which is presumably why when Stu was advertising a job a few months back he was seeking people with a can opener and a tin of alphabetty spagetti!
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Old 13 December 2009, 19:12   #37
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From your comments the APB qualification doesn't sound fit for the purposes you highlight
I didn't say that. What I did say is that it depends on the person teaching it. How can you teach a discipline to an aspiring commercial driver when you've got no experience of it yourself. Especially commercial specific tasks.

The only experience of commercial work, apart from training, I'd got when I qualified as a APBI was virtually zilch. I've now remedied that.

The system needs a overhaul. Not everyone who does the advanced course wants to go commercial. Maybe it needs splitting two ways with comm end people requiring a more intense course covering the tasks they're likely to encounter.
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Old 13 December 2009, 20:28   #38
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You can do what you like (and do) but I'm honestly amazed you've posted a question on a public forum, knowing many of the people who keep an eye on the commercial section, and are suprised they've pitched in!
Thanks I'm aware that I can do what I like, and quite often do

I don't understand why your amazed that I'm surprised, cos I'm not... can't recall saying I was.

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Perhaps you should ask JK to implement a new control so you can restrict commenting to only those that fit your stringent requirements...
There is no need I'm perfectly happy with the way things are, In fact i'm kinda enjoying the debate. I think this thread has been diverted from my original intentions so I started another one

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Hopefully your second thread will magically find the people you're looking for, it will be useful to see how their comments differ from the ones you've already got.
agreed
In post 32 you quoted from a lot of contributors to the thread. Was there a reason why you omitted Trailer Blokes comment re standards. He is after all a long standing employer of comercial skippers
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Old 14 December 2009, 04:46   #39
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Interesting thread. I for quite a while now have been of the opinion that the RYA system has a lot to be desired. I appreciate how its been developed, and that is of course with the leisure boater in mind. I do however think it glosses over a lot of what I would consider to be basic “common sense” issues. Apart from the advanced exam there is currently no additional training required for someone who’s going to work commercially. Of course a lot of the people that do the exam do it simply for their own gratification which means you may well end up doing it with a load of leisure boaters. Fortunately when I did mine, I was with two other people both of whom the examiner knew wanted to drive commercially, he therefore aimed it towards commercial operating, examining us on things like safety briefings etc.

I would be very much in favour of a new course, called the “advanced commercial boat handling course” or something, similar to the new PBI assessment (so basically pass or fail) which teaches and examines how people go about operating a boat commercially. This should cover things like maintenance, knowledge and understanding of the main systems on a boat (so that if something goes wrong, the skipper can at least identify what’s wrong even if he or she is not able to repair it), risk assessments, safety briefings for the punters etc.

I say all of that because I have used skippers before who, in hindsight and in my opinion, aren’t up to scratch (and I would like to add I haven’t used since). Short of going out on a charter to observe a new skipper (which is something I am now doing) there is of course no-way real of telling how a skipper will deal with a “situation”. Even then you still can’t be 100% sure.

As Jimbo has said, common sense isn’t something you can really teach. However, it is something I think you can examine; a new pass or fail course/exam type thing I think would weed out a lot of less-than-able skippers.
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Old 14 December 2009, 05:54   #40
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Quote:
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That may be a crass statement to make but it might be interesting to see how many have experience of putting a boat against a windtower in a 2-3m sea, how many have experience of coming alongside a mother ship which is moving at 3-4 knots for crew transfer, how many have experience of laying an anchor for a bigger boat, how many have experience of loading passengers within a surf line etc etc. These are all instances of tasks you may be asked to carry out as a commercial driver so you'd expect the person teaching you would have experience of these things

These are all tasks which an advanced commercially endorsed boat driver might be expected to carry out.
A Commercially Endorsed RYA Advanced certificate demonstrates that a person has been shown to be competent to the level of the RYA Advanced syllabus, plus a bit of ancillary stuff like Sea Survival, VHF, First aid etc.

What in the world makes you think that the RYA Advanced Powerboat syllabus is appropriate for the sort of work you're talking about? It's clearly not the right qualification for the job, and anyone who employs someone to do this sort of work on the basis of that certificate would seem to be lacking in judgement. At best.

I don't know if there's any sort of "industrial" powerboat skipper certificate that would be more applicable. If there isn't, then there probably should be. I'm not sure that the RYA would be the right organisation to have anything to do with it though.
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