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Old 13 December 2009, 02:14   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogue Wave View Post
It's not going where I wanted it to go because I'm not getting the answers from new commercially endorsed Skippers. I only asked one question, from a specific group of people and so far I haven't got an answer

Why The questions?

As an RYA Powewrboat instructor I am intesested in what is happening in practice and not theory. Having said that I haven't been looking for instructor work for over a year.

As a member of the RYA I'm intereated that my association is doing it's utmost to improve commercial powerboating safety.

As a commercial boat driver I sometimes am consulted to recommend people and levels of qualifications to my employers so it's good to know what people are coming out of the courses with. Also as a commercial boat driver it would be good to know what my new colleagues have been trained in. I'm also interested in wether the RYA have acted on the recommendations made to them by the MAIB re spinal injuries in 2009

I couldn't agree with you and Jimbo more re the Hero to Zero course, does this mean that yourself and Jimbo (i know you can't answer on his behalf) would not offer such a package?

I accept that the treatment of the injuries I mention would be covered on an RYA 1st aid course, but I'm far, far more concerned about prevention rather than cure so I'm interested in finding out how much input is put into helping new drivers avoid inflicting those injuries.

Re the communication issues, I wasn't referring to Customer Care Skills as such but the communication with passengers in an emergency/breakdown. I also accept that you can get get on the radio if you had a breakdown but it's a lot cooler if you can spot an issue before or whilst it's happening.
and prevent the breakdown.

I'd still love to hear from a recently qualified boat driver.

BTW for the record I don't think im a fantastic boat driver, everytime I think I'm adequate the sea has a way or reminding me that I'm not!
The incident with Celtic Pioneer is a good example to ask this type of question.
The helm was a level 2 commercially endorsed driver not ADVANCED operating outside of area covered by his qualifications . The helm was at the rear of the rib the area least affected by the sea conditions , the lady who suffered the wedge fracture to he lower spine was seat at the front the area of the rib most affected by the sea.

Poor communication with the rescue services made the situation worse in delaying the woman getting ashore taken to the wrong landing place.

Recommendations were standing up in heavy weather to avoid spinal injuries absorbing the shock through the knees and the RYA developing a thrill ride driver course.

This is not needed just better training IE the Advanced course better safety briefings for rough weather , a hand signal from passengers to indicate a problem and helm to act on it , better emergency action plans and normal operating procedures for such rides . An understanding of how the boat is affected by rough sea conditions if a aft helm centre helm or forward helm
Tim
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Old 13 December 2009, 03:09   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tim griffin View Post
The incident with Celtic Pioneer is a good example to ask this type of question.
The helm was a level 2 commercially endorsed driver not ADVANCED operating outside of area covered by his qualifications .
I don't remember that from the report - and thought the MAIB were suggested PB2 was probably not a suitable requirement level - rather than the skipper was inadequately qualified within the current framework, but I may be wrong. Its quite a serious accusation though.
Quote:
The helm was at the rear of the rib the area least affected by the sea conditions , the lady who suffered the wedge fracture to he lower spine was seat at the front the area of the rib most affected by the sea.
that might suggest this was an isolated incident. But from the report: "The MAIB is aware of 28 accidents that have resulted in lower back compression injuries on board RIBs since 2001. Of these, 21 occurred in the last 3 years, 12 were confirmed as spinal fractures and 16 occurred during thrill-type boat rides."
Quote:
Recommendations were standing up in heavy weather to avoid spinal injuries absorbing the shock through the knees and the RYA developing a thrill ride driver course.
actually neither of those points forms recommendations in the report. There is some brief discussion around the reduced stress on the spine by standing - but no specific recommendation that this is adopted.
Quote:
a hand signal from passengers to indicate a problem and helm to act on it
Thats all very well - but it won't deal with the issue that a passenger will not wish to disrupt a trip for everyone else, will not want to be seen to be creating a fuss etc. So you end up with it only being used once its got too bad / an injury occurs. Add to that that anyone feeling uncomfortable / scared / bounced about is probably holding on for dear life.
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Old 13 December 2009, 08:59   #23
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I read all MAIB reports I can get my hands on and following the Celtic Pioneer report I changed my safety briefings and also my health and safety policy docs so all helms have an understanding of accidents that occurred.
I certainly recall what Tim Griffin states about the helm being a PB2 commercially endorsed outside his area of ops and also the owner was aboard and also the mistake of not notifying the coast guard of the injury for advice and help.

As a charter operator I always look for ways to ensure maximum safety for clients and other boat users which is paramount and we should all develop and learn from others experiences, mistakes etc. Again it does not answer your original question but safety is first and second in my book.
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Old 13 December 2009, 09:36   #24
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I certainly recall what Tim Griffin states about the helm being a PB2 commercially endorsed outside his area of ops
OK - i've found it:
Quote:
Celtic Pioneer and Celtic Ranger were certified under the
Yellow Code to operate up to 20 miles from a safe haven, which requires a
minimum qualification equivalent to the RYA Powerboat Advanced Certificate of
Competency. The skipper on board Celtic Pioneer only held the RYA Powerboat
Level 2 Certificate. As the 1 hour ‘coastal blast’ took place within 3 miles of
the Cardiff Bay barrage, this could be considered to fall within area category 6
of the SCV Code, in which the Powerboat Level 2 is an acceptable standard
providing a departure point has been nominated. As no departure point was
nominated, and as the skipper only held a Powerboat level 2 qualification, this
trip did not meet the requirements laid down in either Code.
The report doesn't make a big deal of it, I guess because the same boat and skipper could have been operating in exactly the same way (and within the rules) if they had coded with a nominated departure point (so simply saying the skipper was "under qualified" is not the cause).
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Old 13 December 2009, 11:29   #25
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Perhaps I should have said that a Powerboat Level 2 Certificate would not be suitable as the level of experience is minimal .

But are we not moving away from the thread this incident did not invlove a helm with a Advanced Powerboat with Certificate of Competence.

I am afraid I wrote my reply from memory regarding the incident but thank you for pointing out my errors regarding facts I shall pay attention to detail in the future.
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Old 13 December 2009, 13:14   #26
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The Drivers Qualifications were poor and I suspect that will cost the owner (and me) a lot of money. However, the recomendations o the RYA were a general recomendation to highlight risk throughout the powerboat sylabi. he did however have years of experience with this company

Quote:
Originally Posted by tim griffin View Post

Poor communication with the rescue services made the situation worse in delaying the woman getting ashore taken to the wrong landing place.
Agreed which is why I asked if it how comms were covered in the course/ assessment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tim griffin View Post

Recommendations were standing up in heavy weather to avoid spinal injuries absorbing the shock through the knees and the RYA developing a thrill ride driver course.
Is that sort of thing covered in the assessment. makes a lot of sense to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tim griffin View Post

Recommendations were standing up in heavy weather to avoid spinal injuries absorbing the shock through the knees and the RYA developing a thrill ride driver course.

This is not needed just better training IE the Advanced course better safety briefings for rough weather , a hand signal from passengers to indicate a problem and helm to act on it , better emergency action plans and normal operating procedures for such rides . An understanding of how the boat is affected by rough sea conditions if a aft helm centre helm or forward helm
Tim
re the RYA developing a thrill ride course, that wasn't said in the report, but not a bad idea at all Tim in my opinion. Theres a few schools doing more commercial PB training but it's outside of the RYA. MRI being about the best I can think of but there another RYA Skool down Humber way (Team Alpha? ) who are issuing there own certificates, in addition to RYA tickets You've got a good school and a good reputation have you considered it?

Some of the recommendations from the MAIB in this incident were

The PBA and PBOA institute a code of practice for thrill seeker rides. The report says that this is so done.

The RYA raise the awareness of the dangers of shock and vibration in small highspeed craft through its powerboat training syllabii,

I'm getting the impression this hasn't been done, yet!. You never know though the RYA could be issuing a directive as we type!
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Old 13 December 2009, 14:05   #27
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Stu - I appreciate there are a lot of respected/senior RYA Qualified instructors on this forum, and a lot of RYA "interest", but it strikes me that as a RIB forum that is not RYA affilliated, if it is answers rather than discussion, and constructive suggestions that may be incorporated into RYA Policy you are after - here might not be the best place to make your voice heard!

I don't know if you attend the instructor conferences, which might be a good place to raise this, but a letter to either John Thorn (Chief Powerboat Trainer) or James Stevens (Chief Examiner) at the RYA might be appropriate - it could provide answers to anything that may have changed, or they may be looking at changing, and is also a good way of putting your ideas forward.

That's not the be all and end all though - I can say following reading your thread it has made me think about the validity of assessing and controlling risk for potential skippers - this is something that it's relatively straightforward to examine and include on the Advanced Requirements, and therefore any preparation courses. I've chatted to 5 examiners I work with about this (drawing their attention to who and where it's come from) and hopefully they will also take it up a level.
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Old 13 December 2009, 16:41   #28
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This is turning into a tape loop!

I shouldn't need to be writing to te RYA, or attending, an instructors conference to find out if they've implemented any changes to their powerboat sylabi with respect to back injuries. The reason for this is that the MAIB did that back in May 2009 sadly judging by the reponses so far nothing has happenned.

If the RYA want to talk to me and explain why they've done nothing

I am

Stuart Anthony Hopkins
59 Gainsford Road
S019 7AW
07859886431

Could be fun! I'll put my mobile on chrge. No canvassers plaease.

I still think in your haste to defend the RYA that your missing the tha major point. That prevention of injury needs to be injected at all stages of the powerboat sylabi as requested by the MAIB.

I am please to see that my comments have made you think about safety in a different light.

Now make me even more happy:

Tell me you wont do a zero to hero course.

and you'll be giving a copy or a link to that MAIB report to your rib driving stoodents.
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Old 13 December 2009, 17:04   #29
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I still think in your haste to defend the RYA that your missing the tha major point. That prevention of injury needs to be injected at all stages of the powerboat sylabi as requested by the MAIB.
Stuart, I'm not defending anyone. I'm trying to engage in constructive and relevant discussion.

I think (hope) we can agree that the RYA are not actively encouraging unsafe or ineffective practices in their training or qualifications, and that their motivation for ensuring the safety of all who take to the water is surely the same as yours or anyone else who goes to sea? Extended this - if they do exist to promote safe practice, they must be open to ideas, lessons learnt, criticisms and support, and this has to feed into their training programmes.

Focusing on any specifics that you think should be changed - as an RYA Instructor you will be receiving their Wavelength magazine - that's designed as a way of communicating instructing updates and syllabus changes to us. If you haven't seen what you want in here, and they haven't made any chances you think they should have done - tell them!

You've come on this web forum asking for people who have been through this process recently to come forward and discuss - nobody has (at least not openly, have you had an PMs?). You've made some good points regarding changes you think you should be made, and lessons learnt, and have asked if they have been acknowledged in the RYA scheme - nothing on this has been published yet, but we don't know what they're working on. Several RYA Instructors, Commercial Skippers, and Examiners have come forward to comment, but this still hasn't provided what you are looking for. I'm sure they've discussed this, and know I have widened the net by talking to more people I know in the industry, but I haven't discussed this with John Thorn, as it's your thread, your suggestions, your comments. Surely it's best for you to open up e-mail communication with him so you can find out what the score is, and give him your ideas, and maybe answer his questions?

I'll do that for you if you want - I'll send an e-mail asking what changes, if any, have been incorporated, and what plans are in the pipeline, I just think if you're motivated enough to ask an open forum, and then say those that comment are "defending" the RYA because they are bothered enough to reply and discuss this with you, I can't see why you won't go direct to the horses mouth.
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Old 13 December 2009, 17:08   #30
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To throw some light on this the RYA announced at the Trainers conference last Feb that there was a need to introduce some info into back injuries and avoidance into the syllabus at all levels. At the time this was hot of the press.

They have in fact time-tabled it as a specific agenda item at this years conference and will be asking us for thoughts on how to go about this.

I suspect that in the mean time they have been doing some work and research. I know they have been talking to a man at the MAIB about these incidents. My guess is that they don't want to re write the syllabus as a knee jerk reaction to a report and get it wrong, instead they want to learn about the subject and make sure they get the right message across. This is a new issue for them

I think the RYA recognise their is a need to make drivers more aware. I think however there is a far bigger responsibility of operators to be aware of what the current issues are in their industry and operate their businesses accordingly
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