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Old 17 October 2011, 14:29   #1
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- virtually anyone can get it commercially endorsed from courses which are essentially about attendance not comprehension.
That is being addressed, see this quote from the RYA Website:
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We are currently developing an online training course to prepare commercial endorsement holders for the extra responsibilities of being a professional skipper or crew, above those needed for safe leisure boating. The course will cover the legal requirements, regulations, guidance and processes for managing the vessel and its crew. From April 2012 this will become a pre-requisite for anyone applying for their first commercial endorsement, and for those renewing their endorsement. Further details will be available nearer the time through RYA Magazine, our website and the marine press.


Source: Commercial Endorsements | Professional Qualifications | Learning | Courses & Training | RYA
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Old 17 October 2011, 14:40   #2
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Jimbo. apart from the RYA, who else is involved in these discussions and decisions.
i.e MCA, Professional bodies or associations?
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Old 17 October 2011, 15:16   #3
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Jimbo. apart from the RYA, who else is involved in these discussions and decisions.
i.e MCA, Professional bodies or associations?
I'm afraid from my own personal knowledge/perspective, all I know is that it has been discussed at various RYA Instructor Conferences (i.e. Instructors have had an input) as well as at RYA House itself. The debate I was involved in at the Yachtmaster Instructor Conference benefitted from input across a massive spectrum, including charter operators, sea schools, wind farm support companies, and commercial towing, salvage, and diving operations. Our comments were then fed back to RYA Training.

Beyond that I couldn't answer; I'd be surprised if the MCA didn't have some sort of oversight, but as I say, I don't know. It may be that other Ribnetters (Doug springs to mind) will have further knowledge, but I've e-mailed Richard Falk at the RYA anyway to find out some more info for you.
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Old 17 October 2011, 15:30   #4
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Jimbo, as it stands what I wrote is correct, and there is no specific date for launch for the new training either. However, I'm somewhat cynical that an "on-line training course" is actually going to address the point I made, not to say that the content is not relevant/useful/appropriate.
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Old 17 October 2011, 15:34   #5
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With a Powerboat Level 2 you will be restricted to MCA Category 6 which covers to sea within 3 miles from a nominated departure point(s) named in the vesels certificate and never more than 3 miles from land, in favourable weather and daylight.

You can check whether the area of operation is at "sea" by checking out Categorisation of waters MSN 1776 (M) produced by the MCA

Are you saying that A mothership can't be a nominated departure point or am I reading this wrong?

As I made no mention of a mothership I am a bit confused as to your point.
The restrictions stated in relation to Category 6 are as stated in The Maritime and Coastguard Agency (MCA) Codes of Practice for Small Commercial Vessels (SCV) MGN 280
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Old 17 October 2011, 15:41   #6
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Jimbo, as it stands what I wrote is correct, and there is no specific date for launch for the new training either.
Yes - I wasn't attempting to correct you in any way, I was attempting to enhance your post and the rest of the advice given - the new e-learning course is something everyone who has or wishes to gain a commercial endorsement will have to do, so there is no reason not to make people aware of it.

The specific launch date will certainly be made public on the commercial endorsement page I linked to (as well as elsewhere) so I think that with an "effective from" date of April 2012 it still has relevance to someone who is considering their options.

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However, I'm somewhat cynical that an "on-line training course" is actually going to address the point I made, not to say that the content is not relevant/useful/appropriate.
That's probably a debate for another thread, and perhaps after the course has come out and the content has been seen. In any case, the justification for the new course is based around a response to criticisms such as "anyone can get it commercially endorsed from courses which are essentially about attendance not comprehension", as the assessment aspects of it will involve comprehension, not just attendance in front of your monitor.

Perhaps I should have posted the quote and link to the RYA independently of your comments; but as I say, this future course has specific relevance to williamhorace336, as well as anyone else planning to commercially endorse, or continue to be commercially endorsed, in the future.
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Old 17 October 2011, 16:07   #7
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Jimbo, I wasn't trying to get into an argument. I'm a cynical git, but I doubt it will really test comprehension - it will likely be multiple choice (like the CEVNI test! or the Driving License Theory Test) and it sounds like it will be sat at home so self regulated (e.g. I could have an "expert" sitting beside me coaching me through the answers - if it was really tricky).

I can already imagine the threads come middle of next year from established commercial skippers having to "take a mickey mouse test to keep pen pushers in a job" despite the fact "they've been doing the job for 15 yrs" - not to say they are necessarily good at it! It may however have been better to develop some form of exam similar to the Advanced, assessed by someone independent of the instructor and ensuring that these aspects were covered in the syllabus.
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Old 17 October 2011, 16:10   #8
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I can already imagine the threads come middle of next year from established commercial skippers having to "take a mickey mouse test to keep pen pushers in a job" despite the fact "they've been doing the job for 15 yrs" - not to say they are necessarily good at it!
Mostly, that will be the same ones that complained about the old process

As I said; I've no real idea as to the content or delivery of the new course, beyond what I've read in Wavelength, but irrespective of content or effectiveness, it's coming, and will be mandatory.

Hopefully tomorrow Richard Falk will get back to me with some answers on Ian's questions as to who has had input.
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Old 17 October 2011, 17:00   #9
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The aim behind the new on-line commercial endorsement training/test is to ensure that commercial skippers are made aware of their legal responsibilities.

To date we (RYA Instructors/schools in general) have never really focused on teaching this kind of stuff. It has defiantly been a chink in our scheme.

The number of CoC holders who are unaware what their certificate actually allows them to do and not do is testament to the problem and proven by many of the questions that get asked on this forum.

The aim of the course is to give skippers a better knowledge so that they don't get themselves into trouble. Yes you could cheat and get an "expert" to take the test for you but that's not going to help you much when you later find yourself in court because you were unaware of your responsibilities.

The idea is not to make it harder to become a commercial skipper but to make commercial skippers better.

As Jimbo has already said the new course will kick in for anyone applying for a commercial endorsement from 1 April 2012 and for anyone re- applying for an endorsement. Over the following 5 years we will all therefore have to update.
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Old 17 October 2011, 17:09   #10
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and at what cost, good old rya have done it again, how can they be so arrogant to think the world revolves round them
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