Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
 
Old 22 March 2011, 18:07   #11
Member
 
Country: UK - Wales
Town: Southampton
Boat name: DynaMoHumm/ SRV/deja
Make: Avon8.4, 5.4 & 4.777
Length: 8m +
Engine: Cat3126 Yam 90 &70
MMSI: 42
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,556
Quote:
Originally Posted by C2 RIBS View Post
Rogue- Fladen suits I have a couple but they are still not cheap and I believe they let water in at cuffs and ankles so very similar to the weatherproof kit we supply when needed.
Hi Ian are your watrproofs also flotatopn suits cos the fFadens are, they are also warmer and very comfortable to wear

My thought patternis is that if your customers are already wearing an immersion and flotation suit then do they have to have spare in a locker


and they ain't dear http://www.uk-fishing-tackle.co.uk/p...roducts_id=145

I do however fully support the ethos that you can't put a price limit on a customers safety
__________________

__________________
Here it comes again, I don't stand a chance
Soul possession, Got me in a trance
Pullin' me back to you - Deja Voodoo
Rogue Wave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23 March 2011, 05:59   #12
Member
 
Country: UK - Scotland
Town: Easdale
Make: Humber/Quinquari
Length: 10m +
Engine: Outboard
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 297
Are we missing the point at the monment?

There must be justifiable reasons to bring about change to regulations. The only justification for change is there must have been incidents where passengers on small commercial craft have had to abandon directly to the sea instead of to a liferaft.
Under freedom of information the MAIB are to provide details of all incidents to small commercial vessels where either the liferaft has been launched or the passenger has 'entered the water'
MGN 280 as proposed is for suits aboard and not worn This precludes people accidentally for example washed overboard.

Most on this forum take reasonably young, fit people to sea. As Russell states some of us carry the full range of the public from baby to Granny and all shapes and sizes in between.

MGN 280 'implies' section 1 that skipper/owner should advise customers on appropriate dress but
section 2 states Additionally when there is a sea surface temperature of less than 10C, there should be an approved immersion suit, dry suit or other efficient garment onboard
(Wet weather gear is not deemed efficient - e mails received Mark Towl MCA and Bas Edmunds RYA)

Should the small commercial boating community be unable to bring a sensible outcome then the debate changes to
Equipment type/size cost availability approval practicality etc
Where do you store sufficient equipment to cover all size of passengers
Do you have to offer instruction in your opening safety talk?
How do you get everyone appropriately dressed into what may be a difficult garment anyway when things have gone wrong. Garments must only be aboard not necessarily worn.
In an incident would your time be better spent minimising damage and dealing with the incident?

As some have admitted - won't be affected as they live in the south but even so please join the debate on behalf of your northern colleagues trying to earn an honest wage. Many of us operate all year. We accept there may be weeks when we can't go to sea due to weather, we all probably have written risk assessment limits of when we operate with regard to weather.

Do sent your opinions to Mark Towl MCA - the debate is open to everyone.
The impact would be huge to business and tourism. It does not just apply to RIBs.
__________________

__________________
Tony Hill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23 March 2011, 06:42   #13
Member
 
biffer's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: swanwick/hamble
Boat name: stormchaser
Make: custom rib
Length: 8m +
Engine: inboard/diesel
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,848
i was hoping mark towl would be retired by now, the mca make it up as they go along, more gear to put on a boat, great!, i think we're gonna need a bigger boat comes to mind.
i've had my run ins with him over my cabin for cat 2 code, first of all he agreed, then changed his mind and offered cat3 saying, "we think the code means full standing cabin", it doesn't say that, it just say's fixed structure, when he started back peddling and asking how many people i could get in there i told him, there was more space in the cabin than in the liferaft he wanted me to carry, as i said, they make it up as they go along.
i agree with a broad based code of practice but there should be specific sections for different class's of boats, stupid things like anchors, i carry the same as a 7 ton yacht, the whole code of pactice is peppered with holes like that, we all know that ribs are safe, it's a shame they don't
__________________
biffer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23 March 2011, 12:46   #14
RIBnet admin team
 
Poly's Avatar
 
Country: UK - Scotland
Boat name: imposter
Make: FunYak
Length: 3m +
Engine: 2 stroke YAM 20 HP
MMSI: 235089819
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 10,114
Tony,

I think your MCA contact is misinterpretting what the Code says.

22.9.1 is a paragraph which is clarified by three sub paras. 22.9.1 requires you to advise what is should be worn.

.1 is sensible advice on appropriate clothing
.2 is particular advice in cold waters
.3 is sensible advice on footwear

Nothing in the code requires you to provide waterproofs (under .1) and non slip footwear (under .3) - simply to advise on their requirement. Likewise with .2.

Now is it reasonably for you to advise Mrs Jones she should wear a flotation suit and non slip shoes and then let her on board in a dress and high heels is another matter.

Quote:
The only justification for change is there must have been incidents where passengers on small commercial craft have had to abandon directly to the sea instead of to a liferaft.
No a sensible risk assessment could identify a real risk (e.g. falling overboard) and see this is a suitable countermeasure (if worn).

Whilst I know exactly where you are coming from, I would assume that anyone operating a work boat in these circumstances, and risk assessing it as a one off activity, would probably insist on dry suits / flotation suits for crew - even if a short trip. Why do we assume it is ok to expose our passengers to greater risk?

Personally I see no point in having them on board in a locker (but as above that's not what the code says - and the section is even titled "Personal Clothing") - but if it were a pleasure ride rather than a local ferry it wouldn't be unusual to issue float suits to participants. If it really is just a local ferry operation - then perhaps local authority coding would be more appropriate and less onerous?
__________________
Poly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23 March 2011, 13:32   #15
Member
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Southampton
Make: Ballistic
Length: 7m +
Engine: Yam 225
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 977
To be honest, i think this is just more H&S for the sake of H&S.
When will it all end ? When we don't go outside, as its too dangerous, but wait, what if there is an earthquake, we cant stay inside either....

Common sense should be enough. If its that cold in the part of the world you live in then the needs should be covered, if its not, then don't force stupid rules on people.

"Additionally when there is a sea surface temperature of less than 10C" you realise you'll need a thermometer and a data recoded to prove the days you needed and didn't need to be wearing the gear
__________________
Starovich is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23 March 2011, 14:19   #16
Member
 
SeaSkills's Avatar
 
Country: UK - Scotland
Town: Oban (mostly)
Make: Ribcraft, Humber,BWM
Length: 5m +
Engine: Outboards
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 632
Send a message via Skype™ to SeaSkills
Quote:
Originally Posted by Starovich View Post
Common sense should be enough.
Maybe, but you know what they say about common sense .... it's just not common enough
__________________
SEASKILLS TRAINING
Web; www.seaskills.co.uk
Email; info@seaskills.co.uk
Tel; 07525 012 013
SeaSkills is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23 March 2011, 14:43   #17
Member
 
biffer's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: swanwick/hamble
Boat name: stormchaser
Make: custom rib
Length: 8m +
Engine: inboard/diesel
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,848
good seamanship and common sense has served me well for over 40 years, i don't need a pen pusher to tell me how to drive a boat safely
__________________
biffer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23 March 2011, 15:10   #18
Trade member
 
speedy's Avatar
 
Country: UK - Scotland
Town: Glasgow
Make: Tornados etc
Length: 6m +
Engine: O/B
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 95
A very valid question to ask is, how many people have fallen out of an open vessel while engaged in commercial activities? In the past statistics quoted have tended to incude all boat users.

People who fall out of open vessels engaged in personal or pleasure activities should not be included in the statistics.

It would be expected that a professional skipper would do their utmost to ensure that no one falls out of their vessel. I have never had a person fall off a boat I was skippering. The way I view it is this, if people are going to start falling off your boats, its time to give up the game..

Some may feel that this is not a true comparison but there have been several cases where people have fallen off CalMac ferries so whats good for the goose is good for the gander! Immersion suits all round methinks...just in case!
__________________
Seaforce. The Tall Ship, Riverside. 150 Pointhouse Place. Glasgow G3 8RS
www.seaforce.co.uk

Telephone 0141 221 1070 info@seaforce.co.uk
speedy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23 March 2011, 15:38   #19
RIBnet supporter
 
C2 RIBS's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Hants
Boat name: Gemineye
Make: Ribeye S850 charter
Length: 8m +
Engine: 300hp
MMSI: 235097445
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,029
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Hill View Post
.

MGN 280 'implies' section 1 that skipper/owner should advise customers on appropriate dress but
section 2 states Additionally when there is a sea surface temperature of less than 10C, there should be an approved immersion suit, dry suit or other efficient garment onboard
(Wet weather gear is not deemed efficient - e mails received Mark Towl MCA and Bas Edmunds RYA)

Should the small commercial boating community be unable to bring a sensible outcome then the debate changes to
Equipment type/size cost availability approval practicality etc
Where do you store sufficient equipment to cover all size of passengers
Do you have to offer instruction in your opening safety talk?
How do you get everyone appropriately dressed into what may be a difficult garment anyway when things have gone wrong. Garments must only be aboard not necessarily worn.
In an incident would your time be better spent minimising damage and dealing with the incident?


Do sent your opinions to Mark Towl MCA - the debate is open to everyone.
The impact would be huge to business and tourism. It does not just apply to RIBs.
Tony I am surprised this has not generated the responses I expected. You hit the nail on the head many times in your notes.. One being- where the xxxxxx do we store additional clothing just in case it is needed??
We already have some five large kit bags with client clothing in all sizes and weights depending on the weather. A good skipper will review the weather and forecasts and if the sea state is such to give concerns then we dont go. It appears that the suggested changes are to carry clothing in case of someone falling in- as I said before thats is what TPAs are for.

I will send a letter to Mr Mark before the date with my concerns and views. I use the ribs all year and we have been out this winter below the temparaure, but our briefings were slightly more involved and speeds reduced.

Also worthy of note RYA training schools are out all year on RIBs which have coded vessels so this would also apply to a school I guess(more costs again)
__________________
Ian
Rib charter and Rib hire with www.c2ribs.co.uk
C2 RIBS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23 March 2011, 15:41   #20
Member
 
biffer's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: swanwick/hamble
Boat name: stormchaser
Make: custom rib
Length: 8m +
Engine: inboard/diesel
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,848
most of us charter lads will relate to this story, you pick up a bunch of people, do the brief and all the bits and everybodies really intelligent and asking loads of questions about everything, you drop them off for lunch or for the evening, when you pick them up they all look the same but they've turned into a bunch of loonies, they only question they ask is how fast does it go, one good rule, bugger about, i stop the boat, go stupid, i put them off, i like speed and fun as much as the next person, but spending time doing charters does shorten your fuse a little, maybe that's a good thing, i don't know, but i haven't had any complaint's
__________________

__________________
biffer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 14:59.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.