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Old 31 December 2012, 13:26   #31
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Hi dsgrnmcm No nerves touched but I suspect your situation is pretty unusual. You mention that you are new to the RYA world so progressing to PBI and then APBI fairly soon thereafter probably means a fair few quals to acquire in a short period of time versus the norm which may spread it out over a longer period of time.

The change that has been announced though in this post doesn’t relate to the need for those seeking to be APBIs to pass their Advanced Commercial Exam as that came in about 18 months ago.

Regarding Stew’s point that the change “may cause some RTC a bit of bother short term” I think underestimates the change this will make. I think there are probably about 400+ schools with accreditation to teach the Advanced but probably only 50 or so running coded craft. I would be surprised if it makes economic sense for many of those 350 or so schools to code a craft (and many cant be coded anyway) as the advanced market is not huge and much of it runs through the larger commercial centres anyway. Therefore the number of centres around the world able to run the course is likely to be dramatically reduced.

Of course I have to highlight a vested interest here but the fact that the Advanced course would only then be run on well specced coded craft can only be a good thing for the scheme so long as the availability of courses remains.

One thing that hasn’t arisen here is the subject of ‘locally licenced’ craft. Given the stipulation that the craft are MCA coded vessels such as those operating in the Solent under local licencing would not fit the bill not least of all as I am led to believe that such licencing doesn’t cover night time operation anyway.

Whilst technically a person could become an APBI with no commercial experience the need for them to be commercially endorsed and therefore to undertake their PPR course means even if they don’t work commercially they will have a greater understanding of that environment and of course the school’s craft will be coded anyway.

Own boat training would not be affected. This situation already exists in the Yachtmaster scheme where the school’s craft is coded yet a client’s own boat for the training and exam may not be.

Regards, Paul
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Old 01 January 2013, 08:39   #32
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Cheers Paul,

Integration or the accreditation of RYA qualifications for RN instructors is a bit hit and miss in the mob, due to time, money and justification.

Where I work we train the cadets to operate in a set area that is controlled by us (staff) with the classroom lessons from the college we can easaily award PB2, if anything by the time they pass out they are at a high level in terms of theory, practical & time on the water.

Our problem as staff is that we are billeted for 2 to maybe 3 years at the college, and by the time someone has completed all the courses up to APBI they will probably be half way through there draft (employment cycle) by that time an instructor will have taught 4 terms which is roughly 80 people up to twin screw (45ft displacement).

I agree that the CoC will give an instructor a better knowledge, and I also believe that you should be well qualified above the level your teaching, also the theory side should be aligned (power and sail)

One thing that interests me is the term commercial experience?

Is that the paperwork side of things? Admin? Or operations?
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Old 01 January 2013, 09:29   #33
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I have always been a great believer in the idea that boats used for pleasure should remain unregulated from a qualification point of view and for the most part I still hold this view.

On the other hand I find the 24 metre limit for the PB2 and APB to be way too high and now I am staggered that an APB instructor can currently operate without being commercially endorsed.

On the 24 metre limit issue, we all know many RIB skippers with PB2 tickets that are barely competent on a RIB let alone on 50 ton MFV for example.

I have always been surprised that the PB2 isn't limited to 12 metres, the APB to say 16 metres and the YM to 24m.

Let's face it there are some great PB2s, APBs and YMs out there but there are also plenty of rotten ones too. If operated commercially then I think things should be tougher so I support the commercial endorsement for APBIs.
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Old 01 January 2013, 09:30   #34
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Originally Posted by dsgrnmcm View Post
One thing that interests me is the term commercial experience?

Is that the paperwork side of things? Admin? Or operations?
I think the term "commercial experience" is a red herring.

The Adv PBI is there to teach safety, boat handling, nav/pilotage etc, in other words what is in the syllabus. Different adv PBIs have different backgrounds.

He is not teaching the inner workings of the offshore industry, in fact in many cases the students will come to the Instructor with considerable experience in his chosen area, if the instructor also has experience in this area greta, but if the instructor gained his experience in a different sector- so what, he is not there to teach pressing onto a wind turbine or anything specific to a particular operation.
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Old 01 January 2013, 11:46   #35
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Here's another slant on coded boats for training

Surely trainees have paid to be on the boats therefore all boats used should be coded as after all they are paying passengers

Comments???
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Old 01 January 2013, 11:48   #36
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Here's another slant on coded boats for training

Surely trainees have paid to be on the boats therefore all boats used should be coded as after all they are paying passengers

Comments???
I think RYA had an exemption before on coding training boats.
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Old 01 January 2013, 12:12   #37
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That was quick!! ;-)

I looked at becoming an instructor last year and was told by a close friend about the RYA stance on seating so had to drop the idea as my boat is a Ribcraft with a stand behind helm sea safari setup

Statement 2 for comment !!
Dive schools use non coded boats for students to travel in should they not be coded or do all types of training establishments get exemptions ?
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Old 01 January 2013, 12:29   #38
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[QUOTE=AMac;508091]That was quick!! ;-)

I looked at becoming an instructor last year and was told by a close friend about the RYA stance on seating so had to drop the idea as my boat is a Ribcraft with a stand behind helm sea safari setup
QUOTE]

C2 RIBS is 100% -I think RYA had an exemption before on coding training boats.

However your close friend is only partially correct as the seating arrangement for RYA Powerboat Level 1, Powerboat level 2 and Safety Boat remains unchanged - the requirement for a minimum 4 forward-facing seats, abaft the console is only for Intermediate and Advanced powerboat courses
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Old 01 January 2013, 13:49   #39
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Thanks for the attempt at explaining the difference between Coastal Skipper and Advanced Powerboat. The theory examinations required realigning. Two methods of obtaining a qualification for vessels to 24m is therefore only a candidate option as you state the end product is broadly the same qualification with the only apparent difference being one boat has a ‘below decks’, the other does not. A 24m boat is a big boat whether it has a below deck or not. My concern is the underlying principles of handling and operating a 6m vessel and a 24m vessel is too broad and the difference between Coastal Skipper and Advanced Powerboat too narrow and unclear.
One must differentiate between those who do their boating for leisure and those who do their boating as their livelihood. Over the past 20 years small boats used in the commercial sector have changed dramatically both in number and operational requirements. Boat design and equipment has also changed significantly. The implication from the RYA statement may, in part, be recognition that in the commercial sector the RYA scheme has not kept apace with these developments. The question being asked is do the changes truly reflect the full extent of these developments. There is no issue with paperwork and red tape, the discussion is the standard of the abilities and capabilities of those who in future will receive Advanced Powerboat Commercial.
There are comments on the forum regarding cases of ‘poor skippering’. Difficult to deal with but there is a method. Questions on the forum about the calibre of student being presented for commercial examination must be faced. Here education and the RYA training scheme may require attention.
There is always room for improvement. This also includes the standard of instructors at all levels but we are focussing on Advanced Commercial. The APBI for a commercial course/exam must surely have considerable experience in operating a boat in a commercial environment. He is there to educate and this must include skipper responsibilities and broad scenarios relevant to the commercial environment. The APBI should be able to refer to his commercial experience which can be encompassed within his teaching style. The teaching establishment and candidates recognising the scope of this experience. Someone who has just read the book, sat the exam and has undertaken limited commercial skippering is not ideally situated to offer opinion of what the candidate is likely to face when he steps to that first work position. The provision of specific onsite familiarisation and training from the employer is only valid if the candidate has the broad basic skills and some idea of what may be expected. The current implication being this may not currently be the case otherwise there would not have been changes.
If a boat is coded to Cat 3R then it has all facilities and equipment necessary for commercial work. Should boats for training and exams be coded for 12? It's suitability as a teaching vessel is under question. If, as is strongly suggested, there is onus on the employer to provide training on the vessel, if the vessel is deemed unsuitable for training purposes by the RYA should it also be unsuitable for the employer? A more sensible approach may include that all candidates must be deemed safe within the vessel, be able to receive instructions from the APBI whilst being able to see and operate all instruments. Four seats behind the wheel may be too restrictive. A more realistic and flexible solution is necessary.
The debate will, I am sure, continue. The changes may be the start to closing the gap. There are many vested interests from the teaching establishments who do not wish to see this market become more difficult to access(350+ without a coded vessel) or be placed under pressure to gain passes for its students to the employer who wishes all new employees to have every skill available. Where is the compromise? I am not sure we are there yet and possibly look forward to a gathering of minds between the industry, the RYA and the MCA.
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Old 02 January 2013, 05:35   #40
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One thing that hasn’t arisen here is the subject of ‘locally licenced’ craft. Given the stipulation that the craft are MCA coded vessels such as those operating in the Solent under local licencing would not fit the bill not least of all as I am led to believe that such licencing doesn’t cover night time operation anyway.
You can operate in the Solent at night with the appropriate local area licence. Given that the local area licence requirements now largely follow MGN280 (with a few exceptions) it would seem a bit odd if this wasn't acceptable!
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