Latest MAIB report RIB incident.

[Polwart]

Last case study in the latest safety digest:

http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources...SmallCraft.pdf

A nice "how not to run a commercial thrill ride".

[skippermarky]

Yes there is certainly things to be learnt by some commercial operators, and some that have been mentioned lately, I think the answer is we should never be complacent and allways, be strict with procedures and briefings, to ensure safety is paramount

[wavelength]

fitted with an adult lifejacket, as was a 2 year
old girl accompanied by another couple.

thats not complacency..thats **** criminal!

[Rogue Wave]

Originally Posted by wavelength

thats not complacency..thats **** criminal!

seconded

[skippermarky]

yes we are all in agreement, so how do we as professionals stop these "COWBOYS" dishonering our livelyhood????

[Starovich]

?

[Rogue Wave]

I second the sentiments in the photo

Skippermarky when you say proffesional do you mean people who do it for a living or somebody picking up a bit of cash on the side makes a big differnce in experience when somebody says I have been a proffesional for 3 years (they might have only driven a boat twice!)

Safety briefings are vital but they have to be fun and serious and they have to be a 2 way process. The removal of virtual peer pressure (not to be a wimp) at that stage is beneficial. One of the cracking things about a power boat ride is the acceleration. So it doesn't hurt to stop every now and again and check that everyone is Kosher and then power off = safety and thrillas all combined

Training ...presently its not impressive or suitable for the work that people are qualified to do after they have their ticket, to be fair the RYA are making more sensible noises about commercial training but there is a long way to go.

Apprentiships / L plates 50 commercial rides (logged and endorsed) under supervision or you don't get the ticket kinda makes you want to improve unless you are listening to the feedback. There are power boat trainers *ie the people with the power to grant a commerciall ticket) who have never operated a Charter or driven a boat commercially.Think back to your commercial course exam what was covered that was relevant to ppassenger safety in coomercial work apart from LJ's, clothing abd sustenance?

So seeing a ticket shouldn't be the end of it particularly for the employer. I would say now that the trainers I am refering to are not coastal based but they can still hand out a commercial ticket to somebody you are going to employ........and to avoid righteous indignation they are not members of this Forum.

I also don't believe that your faith in procedures would save many vertabrae or dunkings, it depends on the nobber you have employed

Mystery shopper. got a new skipper send a spy out on the boat once they are feeling settled see how good/bad they are. My CV is quite strong and I have sent it to two of the charter operators on this forum saying that I was lnot looking for work but would happily be a mystery shopper for them.FOC to review safety.

phusical condition of passengers tailor teh ride to what you think the person can stand. I;m always very wary of taking an obese person (apart from myself) out on a thrill ride. theres a lot of impact on an overloaded spine if you know what I mean!

ok thats a starter Stand by for a robust defence of the RYA's position!

[akirk]

Interesting discussion
Would agree that there was a catalogue of un-necessary issues...

however, I think that we should be cautious not to throw out babies with bath water... I don't think that we should necessarily be insisting on commercial tickets for all boat boys at sailing clubs etc. (which is a potential outcome of one way of reacting) - I have PB Adv. & navigation to YM level, and have owned boats / been boating for 30+ years... and would feel more than comfortable doing the boat jockeying illustrated in this example... I don't think that a commercial ticket is required... (and I would have expected nav lights / safety kit / etc.)

however I do think that perhaps a more serious expectation on the club itself might not be unreasonable... if you put teenagers in charge of a boat then many will see it as a holiday job / fun time / etc. - the club is more at issue than those running the boats, ultimately the club is charging for its service - it should be operating professionally...

and that is where I see the issue - there should be an operator ticket required by clubs / companies / etc. which is more relevant than RYA quals for the boat drivers which are primarily about how to handle a boat - and realistically are not about all the other issues - clubs have such a turnover of boat jockeys that there is no time for those people to have commercial tickets - and clubs couldn't operate financially if their boat drivers had to be professionally / commercially qualified - but if the club had to operate commercially then that is reasonable and then a part of that would be setting the correct environment for those driving the boats...

So shoot the club committee / not the drivers...

Alasdair

[Polwart]

Originally Posted by akirk

Interesting discussion
Would agree that there was a catalogue of un-necessary issues...

First I think you might be mixing two separate incidents - at the start of the week the MAIB published their Safety Digest which included one RIB incident (final case in the leisure section). Then Yesterday the published their report on the Cardiff Bay Club incident.

however, I think that we should be cautious not to throw out babies with bath water... I don't think that we should necessarily be insisting on commercial tickets for all boat boys at sailing clubs etc. (which is a potential outcome of one way of reacting) - I have PB Adv. & navigation to YM level, and have owned boats / been boating for 30+ years... and would feel more than comfortable doing the boat jockeying illustrated in this example... I don't think that a commercial ticket is required... (and I would have expected nav lights / safety kit / etc.)

Now I don't think that anyone has suggested the skippers in the Cardiff Bay incident needed to be commercially endorsed. Where there is reference to this in the report what I believe they are suggesting is that had this been a commercial passage then a PB2 certificate (even commercially endorsed) would not have been adequate considering it was in darkness.

I actually don't think you really need an Advanced ticket (even not commercially endorsed) for a run a couple of miles across enclosed cardiff bay in the dark. A responsible club could easily have shown that its skippers were competent at that level of operations in the dark with a simple 1 hour training exercise internally assessed [this all assumes that the chief instructor was competent at identifying and addressing training which is questionable]. If the boats were properly equipped (nav lights and comms) and the helms had that basic level of knowledge (or could convince me they had actual real experience in the dark), I'd have let them do the ferrying work in a group formation with a supposed senior instructor in the lead.

however I do think that perhaps a more serious expectation on the club itself might not be unreasonable... if you put teenagers in charge of a boat then many will see it as a holiday job / fun time / etc. - the club is more at issue than those running the boats, ultimately the club is charging for its service - it should be operating professionally...

I'm not convinced it is a "teenagers" thing. I can show you people of any age who don't treat safety boat driving seriously. I've no idea what the commercial arrangements between clubs and class associations etc is for events - but I think its safe to say they are not charging commercial rates.

and that is where I see the issue - there should be an operator ticket required by clubs / companies / etc. which is more relevant than RYA quals for the boat drivers which are primarily about how to handle a boat - and realistically are not about all the other issues - clubs have such a turnover of boat jockeys that there is no time for those people to have commercial tickets - and clubs couldn't operate financially if their boat drivers had to be professionally / commercially qualified

actually I'm not convinced it would add a significant cost penalty to clubs. There would be some extra kit required to tick boxes but a good safety boat should be able to meet Cat 6 coding with minimal extra. Commercially endorsing a PB2 certificate costs virtually nothing. HOWEVER, I can see no advantage to going down that route.

So shoot the club committee / not the drivers...

at the end of the day one or both skippers was still at fault. Moreover the "lead boat" was the committee member in charge who should have known better. Whilst the committee are at fault for allowing the situation to exists - the blame in that incident seems to me to fall squarely on the Chief Instructor's shoulders:

- he didn't think he needed nav lights
- he didn't insist on vhfs for all the boats
- he would have known the skippers were not trained in night ops (as he taught them!)
- he should have been aware of the lack of equipment on the boats
- he should have recognised that driving across the bay and back in the dark was totally different to their normal safety boat work and needed a specific briefing / risk assessment.
- he should have known about local bylaws on age of skippers (although I note that the Harbour Master's investigation implies that those laws were no longer in effect).

Is it unreasonable for the rest of the committee to assume that someone certified by the RYA and who's annual inspection report seemed to be mostly OK was competent to run the event without their close supervision? unless he was regarded to be a "maverik" or "cowbow" within the club then why would they doubt him, especially since the OPPY club were also involved.

[Polwart]

Originally Posted by Rogue Wave

ok thats a starter Stand by for a robust defence of the RYA's position!

Stu, you make some excellent points there. However I'm not sure the RYA needs to defend its position. As I understand it they don't claim that a commercially endorsed APB ticket should be regarded as a qualification of competence to do anything you want. I can't think of any other profession where an employer would take a qualification as anything other than an entry level and wouldn't be looking for both:

- personal characteristics which are relevant to the position.
- relevant practical experience, or a supervision/training programme until you know they can.

In some industries where 'cowbows' abound there are trade assocs which promote good practice, run specialist coaching / workshops on specific areas etc. I note very few RIB operators are members of such a body. They will also often produce codes of practice such as actually wearing rather than just carrying lifejackets etc. The other way it can be driven is by insurance companies insisting on standards.

In practice I expect one day someone will be killed and the operators of the business will find themselves facing corporate manslaughter charges for failing to manage the business properly. Perhaps then others will wake up to their responsibilities.