Latest MAIB report RIB incident.

Poly · 04 October 2011, 21:02

Last case study in the latest safety digest:

http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources...SmallCraft.pdf

A nice "how not to run a commercial thrill ride".

skippermarky · 04 October 2011, 21:40

Yes there is certainly things to be learnt by some commercial operators, and some that have been mentioned lately, I think the answer is we should never be complacent and allways, be strict with procedures and briefings, to ensure safety is paramount

wavelength · 06 October 2011, 16:13

Quote:

fitted with an adult lifejacket, as was a 2 year
old girl accompanied by another couple.

thats not complacency..thats **** criminal!

Rogue Wave · 06 October 2011, 21:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by wavelength

thats not complacency..thats **** criminal!

seconded

skippermarky · 07 October 2011, 07:26

yes we are all in agreement, so how do we as professionals stop these "COWBOYS" dishonering our livelyhood????

Starovich · 07 October 2011, 08:55

Rogue Wave · 07 October 2011, 11:10

I second the sentiments in the photo

Skippermarky when you say proffesional do you mean people who do it for a living or somebody picking up a bit of cash on the side makes a big differnce in experience when somebody says I have been a proffesional for 3 years (they might have only driven a boat twice!)

Safety briefings are vital but they have to be fun and serious and they have to be a 2 way process. The removal of virtual peer pressure (not to be a wimp) at that stage is beneficial. One of the cracking things about a power boat ride is the acceleration. So it doesn't hurt to stop every now and again and check that everyone is Kosher and then power off = safety and thrillas all combined

Training ...presently its not impressive or suitable for the work that people are qualified to do after they have their ticket, to be fair the RYA are making more sensible noises about commercial training but there is a long way to go.

Apprentiships / L plates 50 commercial rides (logged and endorsed) under supervision or you don't get the ticket kinda makes you want to improve unless you are listening to the feedback. There are power boat trainers *ie the people with the power to grant a commerciall ticket) who have never operated a Charter or driven a boat commercially.Think back to your commercial course exam what was covered that was relevant to ppassenger safety in coomercial work apart from LJ's, clothing abd sustenance?

So seeing a ticket shouldn't be the end of it particularly for the employer. I would say now that the trainers I am refering to are not coastal based but they can still hand out a commercial ticket to somebody you are going to employ........and to avoid righteous indignation they are not members of this Forum.

I also don't believe that your faith in procedures would save many vertabrae or dunkings, it depends on the nobber you have employed

Mystery shopper. got a new skipper send a spy out on the boat once they are feeling settled see how good/bad they are. My CV is quite strong and I have sent it to two of the charter operators on this forum saying that I was lnot looking for work but would happily be a mystery shopper for them.FOC to review safety.

phusical condition of passengers tailor teh ride to what you think the person can stand. I;m always very wary of taking an obese person (apart from myself) out on a thrill ride. theres a lot of impact on an overloaded spine if you know what I mean!

ok thats a starter Stand by for a robust defence of the RYA's position!

akirk · 07 October 2011, 11:44

Interesting discussion

Would agree that there was a catalogue of un-necessary issues...

however, I think that we should be cautious not to throw out babies with bath water... I don't think that we should necessarily be insisting on commercial tickets for all boat boys at sailing clubs etc. (which is a potential outcome of one way of reacting) - I have PB Adv. & navigation to YM level, and have owned boats / been boating for 30+ years... and would feel more than comfortable doing the boat jockeying illustrated in this example... I don't think that a commercial ticket is required... (and I would have expected nav lights / safety kit / etc.)

however I do think that perhaps a more serious expectation on the club itself might not be unreasonable... if you put teenagers in charge of a boat then many will see it as a holiday job / fun time / etc. - the club is more at issue than those running the boats, ultimately the club is charging for its service - it should be operating professionally...

and that is where I see the issue - there should be an operator ticket required by clubs / companies / etc. which is more relevant than RYA quals for the boat drivers which are primarily about how to handle a boat - and realistically are not about all the other issues - clubs have such a turnover of boat jockeys that there is no time for those people to have commercial tickets - and clubs couldn't operate financially if their boat drivers had to be professionally / commercially qualified - but if the club had to operate commercially then that is reasonable and then a part of that would be setting the correct environment for those driving the boats...

So shoot the club committee / not the drivers...

Alasdair

Poly · 07 October 2011, 13:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by akirk

Interesting discussion

Would agree that there was a catalogue of un-necessary issues...

First I think you might be mixing two separate incidents - at the start of the week the MAIB published their Safety Digest which included one RIB incident (final case in the leisure section). Then Yesterday the published their report on the Cardiff Bay Club incident.

Quote:

however, I think that we should be cautious not to throw out babies with bath water... I don't think that we should necessarily be insisting on commercial tickets for all boat boys at sailing clubs etc. (which is a potential outcome of one way of reacting) - I have PB Adv. & navigation to YM level, and have owned boats / been boating for 30+ years... and would feel more than comfortable doing the boat jockeying illustrated in this example... I don't think that a commercial ticket is required... (and I would have expected nav lights / safety kit / etc.)

Now I don't think that anyone has suggested the skippers in the Cardiff Bay incident needed to be commercially endorsed. Where there is reference to this in the report what I believe they are suggesting is that had this been a commercial passage then a PB2 certificate (even commercially endorsed) would not have been adequate considering it was in darkness.

I actually don't think you really need an Advanced ticket (even not commercially endorsed) for a run a couple of miles across enclosed cardiff bay in the dark. A responsible club could easily have shown that its skippers were competent at that level of operations in the dark with a simple 1 hour training exercise internally assessed [this all assumes that the chief instructor was competent at identifying and addressing training which is questionable]. If the boats were properly equipped (nav lights and comms) and the helms had that basic level of knowledge (or could convince me they had actual real experience in the dark), I'd have let them do the ferrying work in a group formation with a supposed senior instructor in the lead.

Quote:

however I do think that perhaps a more serious expectation on the club itself might not be unreasonable... if you put teenagers in charge of a boat then many will see it as a holiday job / fun time / etc. - the club is more at issue than those running the boats, ultimately the club is charging for its service - it should be operating professionally...

I'm not convinced it is a "teenagers" thing. I can show you people of any age who don't treat safety boat driving seriously. I've no idea what the commercial arrangements between clubs and class associations etc is for events - but I think its safe to say they are not charging commercial rates.

Quote:

and that is where I see the issue - there should be an operator ticket required by clubs / companies / etc. which is more relevant than RYA quals for the boat drivers which are primarily about how to handle a boat - and realistically are not about all the other issues - clubs have such a turnover of boat jockeys that there is no time for those people to have commercial tickets - and clubs couldn't operate financially if their boat drivers had to be professionally / commercially qualified

actually I'm not convinced it would add a significant cost penalty to clubs. There would be some extra kit required to tick boxes but a good safety boat should be able to meet Cat 6 coding with minimal extra. Commercially endorsing a PB2 certificate costs virtually nothing. HOWEVER, I can see no advantage to going down that route.

Quote:

So shoot the club committee / not the drivers...

at the end of the day one or both skippers was still at fault. Moreover the "lead boat" was the committee member in charge who should have known better. Whilst the committee are at fault for allowing the situation to exists - the blame in that incident seems to me to fall squarely on the Chief Instructor's shoulders:

- he didn't think he needed nav lights
- he didn't insist on vhfs for all the boats
- he would have known the skippers were not trained in night ops (as he taught them!)
- he should have been aware of the lack of equipment on the boats
- he should have recognised that driving across the bay and back in the dark was totally different to their normal safety boat work and needed a specific briefing / risk assessment.
- he should have known about local bylaws on age of skippers (although I note that the Harbour Master's investigation implies that those laws were no longer in effect).

Is it unreasonable for the rest of the committee to assume that someone certified by the RYA and who's annual inspection report seemed to be mostly OK was competent to run the event without their close supervision? unless he was regarded to be a "maverik" or "cowbow" within the club then why would they doubt him, especially since the OPPY club were also involved.

Poly · 07 October 2011, 13:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rogue Wave

ok thats a starter Stand by for a robust defence of the RYA's position!

Stu, you make some excellent points there. However I'm not sure the RYA needs to defend its position. As I understand it they don't claim that a commercially endorsed APB ticket should be regarded as a qualification of competence to do anything you want. I can't think of any other profession where an employer would take a qualification as anything other than an entry level and wouldn't be looking for both:

- personal characteristics which are relevant to the position.
- relevant practical experience, or a supervision/training programme until you know they can.

In some industries where 'cowbows' abound there are trade assocs which promote good practice, run specialist coaching / workshops on specific areas etc. I note very few RIB operators are members of such a body. They will also often produce codes of practice such as actually wearing rather than just carrying lifejackets etc. The other way it can be driven is by insurance companies insisting on standards.

In practice I expect one day someone will be killed and the operators of the business will find themselves facing corporate manslaughter charges for failing to manage the business properly. Perhaps then others will wake up to their responsibilities.

akirk · 07 October 2011, 14:50

sorry - you are right - posting in wrong thread

need to clear my head!
I was assuming that the references above to commercial were aimed at the Cardiff Bay club...

thanks for correction

Alasdair

wavelength · 07 October 2011, 16:05

Stu..I wrote a similar post and then got called away and deleted it!
In essence I was gonna say that professional simply means in my book that someone earns money from the job, because he /she likes the life (and its great) OR perhaps they can't earn a living elsewhere...it is no guarantee of skills and there are commercial skippers I wouldn't sail across wet grass with!... and "amatuers" who I trust implicitly. There are (paper) skippers who talk such a good job you believe they can walk on water..only to find the next day that having put the boat aground they can only walk on sand!
Rib rides are great when there is sommat nice to see and talk about and the boat isnt thrown all over the sea...thrill rides are asking for trouble and need so much care. I have lost count of the number of times I have been asked to act as an "expert witness" for back injury claims on thrill rib rides. They (nearly) all seem to get settled out of court but it seems to be a high risk industry in today's blame culture!
i work in a different sector altogether when I am skippering and the risks there sometimes stem from commercial pressures to get the job done. But if anything goes wrong I need to remember that "it is the skipper's decision". Thats what they pay me for and in the event of an accident it's my head on the block!
But anyone can have an accident, esp if they spend so much time afloat. And the proverbial back needs to be covered at all times.
Trade associations are often just that...in a previous life I dealt with some of them and basically as long as the guy paid his money he became a member. The assn was usually useless at policing members or sorting things out and the only time they got worked up about anything was when the guy was using their logo but hadn't paid his subscription!

Rogue Wave · 07 October 2011, 20:15

I also work in the commercial sector, nostly offshore and survey work and when I have to driving tugs!

I did a lot of enkoyable work in the Solent for a couple of years and my comments are mostly based on things I witnessed then.

I can think of one powerboat instructor who is 20 years old and on his website he claims to have a , amount of knowledge and experiene. some fool setting up a charter business may well use him as a safety consultant

Another guy whom I knew went out with me in my 5.4 with a 90 on it we got up to 35 knots and he told me it was real cool as it was the fastest he'd ever travelled on the water. 3 months later he was skippering a charter boat a 10 metre Pascoe with twin 250's on it with fare paying passengers....not good but perfectly legal

Any professional Boat driver working Cowes week would approach it very carefully as 40 % of the commercial drivers out there seem to forget all about the IRPCS and show little apreciation of Closing speed, but I'm sure they would proudly lay claim to the proffesional status.

Also while we are at it I don't understand how come a high speed rib with a Suicide seat (cushion built into the front of the console gets a coding) or why Skippers put passengers on them

eilean mor · 08 October 2011, 11:11

I enjoy reading Polwart, Rogue, and Wavelengths comments, as they are always very sound, coming from folk who know whats what and what end of a spade to use

and sorry, its a bit long, a few know I tend to make comment off line, as its just who I am (exception being the recent 'hmmm....' )

I'd add some bits,
for those of us who are ancient enough, there is a history to be looked at within the RYA, not so many years ago, to become a powerboat instructor, you first had to be a dinghy instructor, and if you look at the development of the RYA powerboat scheme from that, then they've done not bad. It might not address everyones issues, but if those areas are highlighted enough, and seem to be an appropriate development, then the RYA will probably look into it, and get a development group moving on it. Really, powerboating is still in infancy, look at some of the work we are in. 5 or 10 years ago, how many of us would have predicted where it would be today? So yep, I think the advanced/ commercials don't address everything currently, but they made an attempt at the time to cover what they could, and the developments are still ongoing.

myself, in interviewing folk for jobs, - outwith the powerboat world, its that oft quoted bit, do you want to employ someone who interviews well, or do you want someone who in six months time is actually doing the job you wanted them to do...
follow that to RYA advanced or whatever, its a starting point, it gives me a idea of 'supposed' competence, and from that I can see where we go. I do technical advice in a variety of fields, and if my hierarchy will take it, I like being able to employ those with experience, and not necessarily qualifications, the but is... will it stand up in court, and will the time it takes to show that competence be less than that spent on gaining the qualifications.

powerboat trainers, yep, I agree with comments, and in theory, the RYA should be able to weed these out, as the trainers are the only part (other than by a different route the commercial endorsements) that actually has a re assessment- and that its partly based on practical ability. Should we be looking at the advanced instructors and making them do a practical re assessment? because between the two sections, they are the ones running/ awarding the certification.
But.. would that address the issues?

Who is out there to push stuff forward to make more people aware of it, and more relevant to the fast moving/differing needs of powerboat use?

How do we get to the stage of non users knowing that a person they employ/ appoint/ trust can actually make a call on the operation on that day/ location??

But also....
think of the knock on from the Lyme bay canoe incident, did that address the issues? is that what we want and wish for?

thats my bit,
...... now back to looking at strange/not much used light patterns... reassessment looms

Rogue Wave · 11 October 2011, 18:29

[QUOTE=eilean mor;424434]I enjoy reading Polwart, Rogue, and Wavelengths comments, as they are always very sound, coming from folk who know whats what and what end of a spade to use

It's an honour to be grouped in with two of the Forums most experienced Commercial boat drivers and hand held earth moving implement callers

Who is out there to push stuff forward to make more people aware of it, and more relevant to the fast moving/differing needs of powerboat use?
I give the RYA 35 quid a year to represent me as a Powerboater, I give em a bit more every 5 years to revalidate my ticket

How do we get to the stage of non users knowing that a person they employ/ appoint/ trust can actually make a call on the operation on that day/ location??

Same way the truckers do by having an O licence. to get one you have to have a nominated knowledgeable and experienced manager who doesn't have to be an employee but can be on the firm as a consultant but is responsible for doing it right.

Also when I'm driving tugs we quite often get a spin from the Authorities to see if we are doing it right, don't know if that happens in the thrill ride world has it ever happenned to 58degrees N in the sightseeing world

Poly · 11 October 2011, 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rogue Wave

I give the RYA 35 quid a year to represent me as a Powerboater, I give em a bit more every 5 years to revalidate my ticket

Well keep quiet or they'll want to increase your membership fee to be the same as everyone else's!

Rogue Wave · 12 October 2011, 06:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polwart

Well keep quiet or they'll want to increase your membership fee to be the same as everyone else's!

Membership 40 quid a year, rejoin every year as a new member and use a promotional 5 off voucher which are always flying around somewhere. 40 - 5 =35 let me know if you need a voucher

Poly · 12 October 2011, 07:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rogue Wave

Membership 40 quid a year, rejoin every year as a new member and use a promotional 5 off voucher which are always flying around somewhere. 40 - 5 =35 let me know if you need a voucher

Membership now £45/yr with £5 off with a voucher or if you pay by direct debit to renew...

biffer · 12 October 2011, 08:18

I been reading this and wasn't going to post. I've been thinking I'm getting fedup with giving people money for bits of paper to show other people what I can do. I've been a commercial skipper for a while and have never shown anybody any of my papers. I've been helming GEE the offshore powerboat in France and still nothing. I need one medical for the commercial ticket and a different one for the racing. To the same people. I think I've hijacked this thread for a rant. But all these bodies cost money. Usually ours and what do we really get for our money

sent from a remote device

Rogue Wave · 12 October 2011, 18:03

You wouldn't get on a chopper to go offshore without a vantage card which lists all your q's mine cost me about 6k every 2 years

part of the induction process onto a wind farm Job is to present your qualifications and if you aint got em on you your off the Job

Any body hiring a new driver would be very silly if they didn't ensure they had the qualifications that the insurance company expects seems like a good way to lose your house when te accident happens

I'm off driving a survey boat for the next 4 days and the owner has known me for years but I still had to show his clients rep my tickets last week!

It's the way it is nowadays don't make you any good but it's what you need.

your point about the different bodies screwing money out of us is very much on the button. I am currently running 4 medicals and three Sea Survival tickets My Bosiet refresher for all the North sea sectors took a day and cost me £742 and the RYA/MCA doesn't recognise it so I have do theres as well. same instructors same pool different paper.