Commercial on line examination issue

C2 RIBS · 31 December 2011, 12:47

As most are now aware as of the beginning of April 2012 all new applicants for commercial endorsements will also now have to sit an on line examination, as well as all of us with commercial endorsements we will need to sit the exam on each renewal (i.e every five years).

Today I met with a colleague who operates commercially a large cruiser and has done so for over twenty years, but due to his age he has an annual medical and also this means he has to apply each year for the commercial endorsement.

Firstly does anyone know if he will have to sit the on line exam every year or will that pass last for five years but just needing his annual medical and forms as he believes he will need to sit the exam every year!

Secondly he hates computers and has either a family member or accountant do all his on line work, applications, fuel reclaims etc etc. So what will be on offer to help him should he decide to stay commercial to sit this exam which the RYA have told us is up to 4hrs.

Safe to say he is a very able skipper and very knowleagble but he is honestly thinking of jacking in his love of boats and meeting people due to this latest drive of the RYA. He understands it is designed to ensure skippers can show knowledge etc etc but the need for an on line exam may mean we lose a very able and qualified skipper. Can anyone explain for me what the RYA can offer him so I can pass on the info. Thank you

CJL · 31 December 2011, 13:38

Crazy!

I hope you find an alternative to this as you can't impose something like this without offering alternative arrangements.

What happens if you don't have a computer and can't get access to one??

CPD seems to be the latest trend for all and sundry! My operators have to do a similar type of thing but at least they do it at a Driving Test Centre in your local town. That said it is not particularly challenging but I have had a lot of complaints that it takes a member of staff out of work for pretty much a full day.

I would be interested to see how you get on with it all.

Chris

C2 RIBS · 31 December 2011, 14:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJL

Crazy!

I hope you find an alternative to this as you can't impose something like this without offering alternative arrangements.

What happens if you don't have a computer and can't get access to one??

CPD seems to be the latest trend for all and sundry! My operators have to do a similar type of thing but at least they do it at a Driving Test Centre in your local town. That said it is not particularly challenging but I have had a lot of complaints that it takes a member of staff out of work for pretty much a full day.

I would be interested to see how you get on with it all.

Chris

Hi Chris, some of this is sorted, as the computer on line will be sat at an RYA recognised school and the school take some part of the fee for overseeing/ running I believe. The exam will have links where to find answers so this will aid everyone.
The main issue for me is concern for someone who may not be so able to use the computer as this other operator identified and he has clearly been around much longer than me in the charter world, it would be a sad day if the system set up to ensure higher knowledge and standards fails even one person

Doug Stormforce · 31 December 2011, 22:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJL

Crazy!........ What happens if you don't have a computer and can't get access to one?

Yes I would say that's pretty crazy in the modern world.

Quote:

Originally Posted by C2 RIBS

As most are now aware as of the beginning of April 2012 all new applicants for commercial endorsements will also now have to sit an on line examination, as well as all of us with commercial endorsements we will need to sit the exam on each renewal (i.e every five years).

Today I met with a colleague who operates commercially a large cruiser and has done so for over twenty years, but due to his age he has an annual medical and also this means he has to apply each year for the commercial endorsement.

Firstly does anyone know if he will have to sit the on line exam every year or will that pass last for five years but just needing his annual medical and forms as he believes he will need to sit the exam every year!

Secondly he hates computers and has either a family member or accountant do all his on line work, applications, fuel reclaims etc etc. So what will be on offer to help him should he decide to stay commercial to sit this exam which the RYA have told us is up to 4hrs.

Safe to say he is a very able skipper and very knowleagble but he is honestly thinking of jacking in his love of boats and meeting people due to this latest drive of the RYA. He understands it is designed to ensure skippers can show knowledge etc etc but the need for an on line exam may mean we lose a very able and qualified skipper. Can anyone explain for me what the RYA can offer him so I can pass on the info. Thank you

Ian, I dont think the plan is for everyone to repeat the course every time they re validate. I think the plan is that new commercial endorsements will need to take the course from 1 April and the rest of us will have to do it next time we revalidate. Within 5 yrs everyone will have then done it. (this is my understanding and not actually written in black and white, so you cant hold me to it).

As an aside i have spent the last few of weeks playing with the pilot version of the course. I am pleased to report that while some will find the subject matter pretty dry the course is very thorough. Many of the questions that get asked on here by new and experienced skippers alike are within the course content. It really concentrates on teaching you where to find the relevant information rather than learning hundreds of regulations.

This is a good development for the commercial endorsement and if we have to drag a few people kicking and screaming into the year 2012 and encourage them to accept that computers are part of modern life then I guess that is what will happen! There is nothing that says a friend or Instructor can't help you set up the login etc. Beyond that it's no more scary that using a chart plotter you are unfamiliar with. I assume anyone taking the PPR course would have the confidence to tackle a new chart plotter!!!

wavelength · 02 January 2012, 15:29

Quote:

this means he has to apply each year for the commercial endorsement

over 65s will no longer have to re-apply every year for the endorsement from what I have read of it

C2 RIBS · 02 January 2012, 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by wavelength

over 65s will no longer have to re-apply every year for the endorsement from what I have read of it

This is the area I need to confirm for a friend. If he renews the commercial endorsement and can sit one exam which lasts for a five year period we may see a good skipper stay working. Is this documented anywhere?

C2 RIBS · 02 January 2012, 15:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Stormforce

I dont think the plan is for everyone to repeat the course every time they re validate. I think the plan is that new commercial endorsements will need to take the course from 1 April and the rest of us will have to do it next time we revalidate. Within 5 yrs everyone will have then done it. (this is my understanding and not actually written in black and white, so you cant hold me to it).

This is a good development for the commercial endorsement and if we have to drag a few people kicking and screaming into the year 2012 and encourage them to accept that computers are part of modern life then I guess that is what will happen! There is nothing that says a friend or Instructor can't help you set up the login etc. Beyond that it's no more scary that using a chart plotter you are unfamiliar with. I assume anyone taking the PPR course would have the confidence to tackle a new chart plotter!!!

Doug from my understanding after a training day where Richard Falk Chief examiner RYA gave us the low down on the PPR, it is certainly his understanding we will need to re-sit every five years to renew our commercial certification. He stated that all new skippers seeking commercial endorsements from April 2012 will need to take the PPR and everyone renewing from then on will have to take the PPR each renewal before any endorsement is issued, which would then have any new developments and updates included. A new pre course book was to be issued this January.

I agree with your comments above about a good development but have a different view about dragging a few people into 2012. I believe in equal opportunities for everyone and the suggestion that we drag some along is a little short sighted as many will have all the skills beyond a lot of us and maybe due to their learning skills or age find computers hard work and this is why I would like to see the RYA being pro-active helping the smaller number who will find this system hard and could even fail. We need to encourage training(your forte) not force it on people. The RYA expect some to fail and could not explain what would be done to help those indviduals beyond a second PPR test.

wavelength · 02 January 2012, 17:35

from training centres' update that came with our recognition cert in the last week

Quote:

Over 65s no longer have to renew their commercial endorsements annually - it is now only required every 5 years. However, over 65s must retain a current medical at all times

hope that helps

C2 RIBS · 02 January 2012, 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by wavelength

from training centres' update that came with our recognition cert in the last week

hope that helps

Excellent start thank you.

I have studied the RYA link to this new PPR which is available here-
Professional Practices and Responsibilities | Professional Qualifications | Learning | Courses & Training | RYA

and HERE

Commercial Endorsements | Professional Qualifications | Learning | Courses & Training | RYA

This sets out the background and prices etc.

It states "The course will cover the legal requirements, regulations, guidance and processes for managing the vessel and its crew. From April 2012 this will become a pre-requisite for anyone applying for their first commercial endorsement, and for those renewing their endorsement"

The next move on from this is to remove a commercial endorsement at PB2 level and only allow an endorsement starting at Intermediate course level which would allow then restricted water work and keeping the advanced commercial endorsement as it stands for a while before further changes.

I am sure corrections will follow from schools involved in the process but this was the discussion recently

SDGANDER · 02 January 2012, 22:57

Thread drift but does this just stink of another way for the RYA (after all a 'business') to make more money out of issuing/reissuing a CoC? Or am I just being extra cynical today?

They already charge for the issue and renewal of the certificate now. Do the MCA retest Masters/Mate/OOW every five years when renewing?

SDG

C2 RIBS · 03 January 2012, 05:29

What happened to the reply, I think it was a sea school in Cardiff who posted on this thread last night??

doms · 03 January 2012, 07:47

Hi, I've read this thread with considerable interest, I've had a commercially endorsed level 2 for a while now and am about to attend an advanced powerboat course this month, assuming it all goes well then my first point of action would be to apply to have it commercially endorsed; does this mean that my license would be viewed differently by potential operators as i'd 'just got in' before the change, or am I atually at an advantage? I wondered what thoughts folks had?

Cheers
Dom

tim griffin · 03 January 2012, 08:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by C2 RIBS

This sets out the background and prices etc.

It states "The course will cover the legal requirements, regulations, guidance and processes for managing the vessel and its crew. From April 2012 this will become a pre-requisite for anyone applying for their first commercial endorsement, and for those renewing their endorsement"

The next move on from this is to remove a commercial endorsement at PB2 level and only allow an endorsement starting at Intermediate course level which would allow then restricted water work and keeping the advanced commercial endorsement as it stands for a while before further changes.

I am sure corrections will follow from schools involved in the process but this was the discussion recently

MCA driven not RYA thinking of way's to make more cash.

over 65 medical every year not exam as Wavelength said

Those who do not have access to a computer will be offered the oral version of the exam I am guessing at a RTC' one option I will offer as we are going to be part of the scheme.

If you sneak in before April I dont think your certs will be looked at any differently.

Intermediate the new commercial entry level much better idea should do the same for PBI .

Changes to the Advanced knowledge of Navigation to Coastal/ Yachtmaster shore based course as Coastal skipper Comm and APB allow you to take vessel 20 nm offshore so will bring them in line.
Tim

Dr Doof · 03 January 2012, 08:18

The reply from the Cardiff sea school has gone? and the following post mentioning trade membership?

Cookee · 03 January 2012, 08:39

I'm a commercial Yachtmaster power and it seems I will lose this if I don't do it - don't use it very often and not for a while so I may not bother - seems a shame but an expence for little gain - has anyone done any costings yet?

wavelength · 03 January 2012, 10:40

Quote:

has anyone done any costings yet

cost of PPR fixed at £31 plus vat payable directly to RYA ...with a portion then passed onto training centre.

Quote:

I've had a commercially endorsed level 2 for a while now and am about to attend an advanced powerboat course this month, assuming it all goes well then my first point of action would be to apply to have it commercially endorsed

You will of course also have to do a commercial exam, not as with L2 which was just a case of collecting the other bits of paper.

Doug Stormforce · 03 January 2012, 14:15

OK

The PPR course is a once only course, just like the Sea Survival currently is, however the plan is once you have the PPR to run a short update online session that you will have to do when you revalidate (every 5 yrs). As the update is so far of it it has not been written yet but it is anticipated that it will take about 30 minutes and be very low cost, it will focus on changes and areas that are highlighted as particularly important.

As far as the accusation of the RYA trying to generate more revenue goes I think you are being very cynical. The RYA has identified a gap in skippers knowledge and is trying to train better skippers who are aware of their legal responsibilities. This training will help you keep out of trouble. Unfortunately there are always people who will have a dig at those who are trying to make the world a better place.

Those that commercially endorse before 1 April will not be at a disadvantage with employers but will not benefit from the new course- comes back to why you take courses, because you want to learn how to do things well or because you want a piece of paper (most of us are after both).

wavelength · 03 January 2012, 14:48

Doug, have you read the bit that says no more comm endorsed L2 in the future and that a comm intermediate will be put in place in its stead. I'm sure I've read it but now cannot find where it was. Ive probably filed it under "lost forever"

C2 RIBS · 03 January 2012, 14:55

Cheers Doug and others involved. I am trying to get the correct info identified for our members in the PCA which covers Yachts, Crusiers RIBs etc.

Having spoken with the RYA today they are also not sure of the final formular and understand that some people are trying to organise their businesses for the coming year to ensure correct authorities/endorsements are in place or planned and trained for.(they state they have had sveral calls today-I think one may have been the skipper whos age affects his licencing) . The RYA were intending to get some info out in February through the schools but may now be realising the time delay could affect peoples plans/businesses so I am hopeful I may be called with more info direct from the horses mouth in the next day.

Despite my postings here I am unaffected until my next renewal in four years but have members in the association clearly worried about changes which are coming but with no more finality than what was printed on the RYA website. I will post what I am told.

Trell · 03 January 2012, 15:11

[QUOTE=Doug Stormforce;436673]OK

The PPR course is a once only course, just like the Sea Survival currently is, however the plan is once you have the PPR to run a short update online session that you will have to do when you revalidate (every 5 yrs).

Just to pick up on the above point, albeit on a slight tangent
The RYA in my view can be very single minded in certain cases they will not recognise anybody else's certification, using the example you have quoted the sea survival, the RYA will not accept for instance the OPITO qualification (offshore sea survival) which is a far more intensive course and includes fire fighting, five day initial course and then 3 days refresher every 4 years. They have you over a barrel. How long before we have to do the RYA sea survival every 2 or 3 years ?