Commercial Licence?

[Ian]

Thanks Pete, I'll read it again!

[Paul Glatzel]

Ian

The revised code adds a bit more - particulalry if you're looking at Cat 6

12.2.4 Inflatable boats

12.2.4.1 The freeboard of an inflatable boat or rigid inflatable boat should be not less than 300mm measured from the upper surface of the buoyancy tubes and not less than 250mm at the lowest part of the transom with the inflatable boat or rigid inflatable boat in the following conditions and with the drainage socks (if fitted) tied up:-

.1 the inflatable boat or rigid inflatable boat with all its equipment;

.2 the inflatable boat or rigid inflatable boat with all its equipment,engine and fuel, or replaced by an equivalent mass;

.3 the inflatable boat or rigid inflatable boat with all its equipment, fuel, cargo, activity related equipment (e.g. diving equipment) and the number of persons for which it is to be certificated, so arranged that a uniform freeboard is achieved at the side buoyancy tubes; and

.4 the inflatable boat or rigid inflatable boat with all its equipment, fuel, cargo, activity related equipment (e.g. diving equipment) and the number of persons for which it is to be certificated, and the inflatable boat re-trimmed as necessary to represent a normal operating condition.


12.2.4.2 A freeboard mark is not required. The minimum freeboards recorded during the tests of Section 12.2.4.1 and the permissible maximum weight which can be carried should be recorded on the certificate for the vessel.

12.2.4.3 For inflatable boats or a rigid inflatable boats, operating in Category 6 only,which do not meet the freeboard requirement of Section 12.2.4.1 at the transom, may still be accepted by the Certifying Authority provided it can be demonstrated that the boat is self-draining when moving ahead, and has a substantial reserve of buoyancy. The Certifying Authority should record such an acceptance in its report for the vessel (report form SCV2).

Paul

[Rogue Wave]

Hi Paul, erudite and informative as ever! did you recently get my e mail.

Also given that a d notice has been slapped on DGR, he could at leat tell us the agreed shortcomings of the vessell he was on, without naming the school.

I have also just thought of something else.......what if it was an own boat tuition course...does that have to be inspected or is it left to the instructors discretion

[jwalker]

Originally posted by Paul Glatzel
.....and not less than 250mm at the lowest part of the transom ....

Mmmm, I'd a have a wee grump with the sensibility of that. The higher the transom, the more water the boat holds when flooded. The transom cut out is usually the max. level of flooding. If it's low, there's less change of boggin' the battery etc. and all that has to be done to empty it is drive forward. The water will quickly rush over the cut-out and the rest is easily dealt with through the bailers. Some ribs don't even have a transom and the flood/splash water just passes through.

[Paul Glatzel]

Rogue Wave/Stuart

Erudite – had to get a dictionary out for that word – Thanks!

Email – must admit I didn’t notice one - sorry. Can you resend

Own boat tuition:

There is no strict definition here but we provide a kit list ahead of the course and will provide any kit the client doesn’t have. Therefore we run with identical kit on an Own Boat day as we would on a school boat. Instructors make the boat assessment themselves on the day. Recently we’ve refused to go out on two boats (in which case we use ours instead – if available) – one of which had two shoestrings for warps and was very unseaworthy. By contracting with someone and at the outset defining a kit list it tends not to be a problem.

To undertake Own Boat Tuition away from a school’s operating base the Instructor must be an Advanced Instructor – they’re better able to assess risk in unfamiliar waters.

The subject of own boat tuition has been tightened recently and you cannot undertake own boat work in a commercial craft or a club vessel (including dive clubs)

For example our own terms state:

Tuition is provided on the following basis:

• The vessel is insured by the owner for loss, damage and legal liability to third parties
• The owner remains the skipper and legally responsible for the safe management of the vessel at all times (including when under tuition) and will not hold the Instructor responsible for any loss or damage.
• The owner undertakes to secure the consent of the insurers to this agreement
• Own boat tuition will only be undertaken on a vessel owned by the person attending the course, courses cannot be undertaken on Commercial craft or craft belonging to Clubs
• A client who seeks ‘own boat tuition’ will also be sent a separate document detailing the equipment required on the boat. It is a condition of the booking that the client’s boat satisfies the conditions detailed within this document.

Paul

[Rogue Wave]

Most of the NW ribsters (especially Manning) think it an epoxy adhesive!

sorry to bring the discussion down

Asking you a question saves me so much looking in books

Cheers
Stuart

[DGR]

I'm not got to name anyone or anything as it is looking increasingly likely that I'm being a complete arse.

My recollection was that we had a chart and a compass - the compass was mounted on the console.

However, I have been 'reminded' about the little yellow box that was on the boat (which WAS on the other teaching boats, but don't remember one being on the big RIB). The contents of the box are a mystery to me, but probably contained the prerequisite items as required. I'm still convinced that we didn't have a radio though.

ANYWAY... I'm off to find some more humble pie...

Dylan...

[Dunc]

Dylan
Surely the instructor should have let you know what was in the yellow tub? Chances are it was the complete safety kit, which as part of the course the instructor should have shown you. On the safety side what happens if the instructor is taken out in an accident? Theres no point having safety kit if the only person who can use it is incapacitated.
On the commercial licence thread I am in the process of setting up a business to run wildlife trips on a RIB. The way I found out what was required of me was to phone up the MCA explain what I intended to do and ask what I needed. Their reply was that I needed Coastal Skipper commercially endorsed to allow me to operate at Yellow code (20 miles from any safe haven at daytime in fairweather). My question is if I had a designated departure and return point would I only need commercially endorsed Advanced Powerboat? The other thing niggling me is if I went out and ran my business only having done my comercial skipper what experience do I have in fast RIBS? To cover this I will be running the business with comercially endorsed advanced power boat and commercially endorsed coastal skipper because following on from what was stated on the insurance posts I feel more comfortable having gone to all lengths possible to ensure I am running a competent and safe operation. Another thing on the insurance side if you become a limited company and someone decides to sue you they can only sue you upto the value of your total assets which is better than 2000 000.

[quinquarimarine]

Dunc

Your intentions and indeed apreciation of the need for training and experience are comendable.

I do though disagree on your point of insurance. If my understanding is correct then the hiding behind Ltd status is no longer of such use as you are no longer exempt from criminal charges and if found guilty of say manslaughter then your chances in the civil court as an individual rather than an ltd is poor.

If your insurers advice otherwise I would strongly advice taking counsel on the matter as we have.

My same old advice is that operators must have a min of £10m cover and even that divided by 12 pax is minimal.

Cheers

John

[Dunc]

Thanks for the advice I will look into it. The person who gave me the advice was a business advisor so not necessarily up on marine insurance.
If you are operating with 10-12 people and as skipper you are have all the qualifications/experience you need what about the crew? Does the second person on the boat need any qualifications?
Dunc

[quinquarimarine]

Duncan,

A valid point and one that is often "flouted" by operators whereby they designate one pf the pax as crew.

A pax is defined as a person over the age of 1 years and who would could not be considered as part of the crew. So to begin with a pax cannot also act as crew.

Now it is up to the master to ensure that the vessel is operated in a safe manner. The legal requirment for a crew would then lead to the crew being of some use and from personal experience I would recomend the following for crews. Crew are normally required to be 18 years of age (21 for class 6 vls)

1. Use regular crews.
2. Provide full training including manning of the vessel (in case the skipper is incapacitated).
3. Have undertaken a medical.
4. First aid and if poss sea survival.

You need to look further than the code requirements and consider the employment acts whereby you need to provide adequate training and risk assesment for your employees for their own safety as much as that of the pax.

Good buines practice and management will lead to crews staying with the company and training up to become skippers over a period of time. This will ensure the sucess of the company. Also crews act as an invaluable part of the customer relations on board and I would always suggest that their role is considered almost as important as the skipper.

Finally there is the point of whether they become PAYE or selfemployed. It is possible to employ skippers/crews on a regular basis with a carefuly worded contract that is acceptable to the IR. Whatever method you must make it formal so that in the event of an accident you can demonstrate a clear contractual basis.

This is important as the skipper holds many "rights" and responsibilities that he will undertake and a minute by minute basis without you being present. It can become a very complex subject but as two examples.

1. If the skipper considers it too rough to go to sea but you consider it fine what do you do !. On the other hand he proceeds to sea and you consider it too dangerous !. Best policy is to give the final decision on conditions to the skipper but you as owner reserve the right to stop the vessel proceeding.
2. The crew (who also happens to hold a skippers ticket) feels that conditions are not fit and does not reach an accord with the skipper. One step away from mutiny but again you need a clear written policy to deal with such so that in an event of an accident you can demonstrate good management.

Cheers

John

[Naked Dave]

Well when I asked my question right at the start I didn't expect to stir up such a hornets nest.

Thanks to everyone who has taken the time out to reply, there is a lot of good advice and sound reasoning.



Dave