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Old 17 March 2004, 17:46   #31
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Work boat...

Not being funny, but under the new regs, being a workboat isn't the point.

If you are work boat (no pax, no cargo) you are still covered by MCA regulations. If it is a fact of life (which it is) then fine - no problem. BUT - why do the RYA approve to a different level? And if they do, why is that not acceptable to other organisations that can do their own risk assessments?

As I've said previously - it's inconsistent.

D...

P.S. Sorry for the typo's, pi**ed as a conker!!
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Old 18 March 2004, 03:37   #32
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The RYA level of approval hasn't caught up with the MCA. Previous to last year you could get a local authority charter ticket which had a strict examination of the craft but didn't require the carrying of a liferaft. That lticket usually covered an area of 30 miles from the point of origin. These have been suspended in our area in deference to the MCA.

Your point however is very valid and I can't answer it so I am gonna send a link to this thread to John Mendez and maybe he can comment. My view is that they would align themselves with the regulations in due course.

What was the name of the RYA school that took you out without a Radio?

I would imagine the workboat codes are a lot stricter as you would come under the Maritime equivalent of the health and ssafety at work laws, but I dunno
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Old 18 March 2004, 04:44   #33
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Humble pie...

I'd be interested to know what the RYA response is.

As for the school, two other people who were on the course with me have disputed my recollection of the kit on board the boat - and as I'm neither perfect or infallible , I don't think it would be fair to name them.

However, even if I'm wrong and the RIB did have kit on it that I can't remember, all of us agree that the boat wouldn't have passed an MCA inspection. It's the inconsistancy that I find puzzling.

Dylan...
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Old 18 March 2004, 07:47   #34
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You got me going now! I just realised that if you are being trained on a yacht that has to be coded.

The RYA inspection is rather different from a coding survey.

During coding you have to conduct stability tests , the free board is measured and liferafts have to be checked for date. None of this occurs in an RYA inspection.

The main thrust of the RYA inspection is that the boat is seaworthy and carries adequate and current safety equipment, and has the right equipment for training a student. for example I should imagine a boat would fail if it didn't have a fixed compass.

Given the boat did have a radio what else was wrong with it, what type of boat was it?

Cheers

Stuart
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Old 18 March 2004, 07:51   #35
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Just in case

I wouldn't start publishing to many details of the boat and/or operator.
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Old 18 March 2004, 07:55   #36
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Dylan, on the point about the school you felt that was not carrying a suitable level of kit I would urge you (and anyone else who encounters what they see as shortcomings in a school) to contact Jon Mendez at the RYA. (jonathan.mendez@rya.org.uk or 0845 345 0400). As you will see at the RYA site, two schools have recently had their RYA accreditation removed evidencing that complaints are taken seriously.

Totally agree with Ian that it would be extremely unwise to refer to any school here that you are concerned about.

One of the key points made appears to be that the application of the codes and what they contain should be very much ‘black & white’. Whilst this is a fair point this is not always necessarily best.

Take an example: in the older codes the minimum transom height for a RIB was 30cm, theoretically therefore an Atlantic 75 could not be coded for commercial work. Code of Practice inspectors though applied common sense, assessed the risk and would rule on an individual basis according to their assessment of what they found.

Another good example is coding for night work, open boats can be coded to Cat 3 with suitable protection for the occupants (some form of tent structure tends to work). I’ve also come across boats Coded to Cat 3 with the stipulation that they must work in a pair and “favourable conditions”. The point being that a sensible interpretation is better that precise application and therefore is a very literal interpretation of the rules really best?

With regard to RYA boats. The RYA negotiated an exemption with the MCA to allow Training Centres to run a commercial operation without needing to fully code. In effect it is a variant of Cat 6 coding as it limits a crafts operation to 3 miles from its Nominated Departure Point but does allow night operation on the Advanced course. Given that this is a negotiated exemption and that Centres are annually inspected by RYA Centre Inspectors then these TCs are in effect running coded boats - its just a level of coding that ‘Joe Public’ can’t code to. Given that TCs have many other safety type ‘hoops’ to jump through to be TCs then you can be pretty certain that in visiting a TC you are visiting a safe operation. (there will always be the odd newsworthy exception). Schools running Advanced Courses need to run with boats suitable for that training and the Centre Inspector will closely assess the boats being used.

Whether the changes to the code will make any difference I don’t know but have emailed to find out.



Paul
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Old 18 March 2004, 08:01   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Paul Glatzel
Another good example is coding for night work, open boats can be coded to Cat 3 with suitable protection for the occupants (some form of tent structure tends to work). I’ve also come across boats Coded to Cat 3 with the stipulation that they must work in a pair and “favourable conditions”. The point being that a sensible interpretation is better that precise application and therefore is a very literal interpretation of the rules really best?

Paul
Paul that's interesting, I hadn't heard of this. Cat 3 requires further equipment again to Cat 4 but assuming both/all ribs to be used had the correct equipment, this is possible.
I'll speak to parties to find out their views.

The only thing with interpretation is you can get many different opinions from surveyors. In my opinion the Codes should be 'black & white' as you mentioned.
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Old 18 March 2004, 17:14   #38
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Coded work

Some wonderful and contstructive replies have been made on this thread.

My comments on do it 100% stand and this is borne by the problem we all have in being able to interpret the regs whilst understanding an individual surveyors understanding of the regs.

To be fair a good surveyor will look at each vessel and adopt a"pragmatic" application of codes relative to the boat, owner and appliaction. But at the end of the day we must all put ourselves in the terrible situation of a mojor accident/fatality.

then do apply

1. Will you on moral grounds be able to say that "I"dd my very best with no financial restrictions pertaining to equipement or operational/logistic proceedures.

2. Faced with a manslaughter charge in court can you demonstrate that you exceeded the codes.

A very difficult subject for all of us but as owners/managing agents the buck will stop at this door.

I was pleased to see a reply on "occasional" operators and the disgust that it caused.

My old barking about standards/quality/ticket price but vs taking out maverick operators apply.


What about John K putting a commercial operators forum in such a good site !!


As always cheers


John
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Old 18 March 2004, 17:21   #39
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Stability Test for Code

Question:
On the stability test for coding a RIB where is the measurement taken from/to?
Sea level to:
A/ Top of Tube;
B/ Centreline of Tube;
C/ Top of Transom;
D/ Centreline of Transom;

If anyone really does know I would be very interested to hear from you on this thread or by PM. I have a very good reason for asking!!!

Thanks
Ian
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Old 18 March 2004, 18:57   #40
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Ian, the two measurements are taken, top of the tube and height of transom. Quote from the yellow book:

"The freeboard of a rib should be not les that 300mm measured from the upper surface of the bouyancy tubes and not less than 250mm at the lowest part of the transom"

This asumes a fully loaded boat with fuel and pax etc.

Pete
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