Commercial Licence?

[tim griffin]

it has to be the RYA advanced ticket for a commercial operator
that at least proves some level of competency, as for experience anyone applying for work, for me i would like to see some proof
of experience, it is such a hard game to work in and one accident will finish your business, i do get brassed off during events
such as Cowes week when a load of ribs turn up for chartering undercuttuing the commercial operators, they may not be qualified
or insured for chartering last year the MCA rib was stopping loads of ribs, and asking for paperwork and asking the passengers if they were a charter or not i know of three boats ,who scurried back to mainland .hopefully they will be around again this year
Tim
www.griffmarineservices.co.uk

[Pete7]

Tim, I think they will. they were making there presence felt last August in Weymouth with there new boats.

http://www.vosperthornycroft.co.uk/halmatic/news.asp?s=

Pete

[DGR]

I seem to have given completely the wrong impression!! I am NOT trying to justify any relaxation of the MCA guidelines, and if I code my boat, will have no problem in putting a liferaft on it!! I completely agree, if you are going to do it, do it properly.

My only point is that the application of the rules hasn't been / still isn't consistant. For example, why should RYA schools be exempt? It's a boat, operated on a commercial basis - the last one I was on, whilst within 3 miles of land at all times, didn't carry any sort of radio (or any other kit). There was also no safety boat that could be described as 'keeping an eye out'. Why should four people on an RYA course be under different rules to a charter boat with 4 people on board?

On our course, had something happened to the school RIB, we could have been in trouble. If it were my RIB, I might not have a liferaft, but I'd have had VHF, and at least I could call someone about it.

Just to repeat - NO problem with doing things properly. I'd just like to see some consistancy. It might also get rid of all these 'grey areas' that cause so many of these threads!! For example, according to the MCA (and posts on this thread), you CAN commercially endorse PB2. Also, according to this thread, you need Advanced PB to be endorsed!!

Confused, of Kirkham...

Dylan...

[tim griffin]

why were you training with a school with no safety kit on board
pb2 commercial endorsement area 6 3mile from NDP and 3 mile offshore Advanced is for area 3 with two years experience up tp twenty miles from a safe haven so yes you can get a commercial endorsement on a pb2 look at paul glatzels reply and you will see it explained also have a look on his website their is a good article re coding arib.
regards
tim
www.griffmarineservices.co.uk

[DGR]

why were you training with a school with no safety kit on board

Erm... 'cos I assumed that an RYA approved school would be following the relevant regulations?

The rules do seem to be getting clearer (with much help from places like RIBnet and Paul Glatzels website, and recently the MCA after I managed to find the draft guidelines...) but the application still isn't consistant.

I still don't understand why an RYA school boat - carrying paying punters - should be exempt, whereas a non-passenger carrying RIB, working commercially, either single handed or with just crew, isn't!!

Dylan...

[Ian]

Originally posted by DGR
I still don't understand why an RYA school boat - carrying paying punters - should be exempt, whereas a non-passenger carrying RIB, working commercially, either single handed or with just crew, isn't!!

Dylan, that's a good question to put to the RYA.
I am amazed there was no VHF onboard or a first aid kit as this should also have been on the rib and all students should be supplied with 150N Auto Life jackets. Not sure what else is required but inshore flare pack I'd have thought.

[tim griffin]

Good question
ive looked through the RYA Principals pack and found this
"All craft used in teaching will in all respects be well found, regularly inspected and maintained, suitable for instruction,equiped to the standards set out in the relevant RYA booklets and that no craft to which a Department of Transport Code of Practice applies will be used unless such craft have been officially inspected and certified as being in conformity with the code."
paying guest for a charter is different than paying for tuition
as a RYA TRAINING CENTRE you are inspected to a high standard
involving boats SAFETY EQUIPMENT safety policies facilities and so on, the RYA is the governing body for recreational users and is often in conflict with the MCA re lightdues red deisel the MCA is the goverments appointed agency to ensure codes of practice for commercial operators fare paying not instruction the RYA is recognised by the MCA as the provider of tuition in leisure use in this country the MCA also recognize other governing bodies within this sport BSAC RLSS BCU
hope this helps
tim
www.griffmarineservices.co.uk

[DGR]

OK - so the MCA regulate conditions for fare paying passengers, and as the RYA are instructing, and therefore not carrying 'passengers' they are exempt?

If that's true, if a commercial RIB isn't being used for fare paying passengers, then the coding shouldn't be relevant. But it is!!

I guess that just underlines my point about inconsistant application. Either it should be applied, or it shouldn't.

Anyway, by the time I buy all the coding kit, there won't be room for any passengers, so I won't need all the coding kit.....oh dear...............

Dylan...

[scm]

Just to add fuel to the fire!!!

If you are in the Solent you are not at sea. Fact according to the MCA.

You can now use the inland waterways coding, cat water c +d and the requirement for the driver is among other things:
RYA Powerboat level 2 with 12 months relevent experiance.

The RYA ribs do not have to be coded. Fact, but do need to be inspected by RYA coach/trainers to be up to the required standard for use on the RYA courses. I think there are a number of trainers on this site that would welcome the opertunity to inspect the said RYA establishment that you say you did your course at!!!!
Regards
Stuart
ps Been through the whole Coding thing myself and will be at Cowes week etc if you need me

[Rogue Wave]

Do everybody who goes for training and report the establishment to John Menzies at the RYA....he will do something about it. Out of interest did the school drive home the imprtance of radio and safety as they are supposed to as part of the syllabus?

We rent ribs to charter companies and training centres and the RYA inspection is, at least, thorough and most certainly does require you to have all relevant safety equipment on board. A liferaft is not a requirement for the RYA but I suspect it will be when the MCA regulations come in to force.

I wouldn't employ a PB2 to drive on one of our charters unless I'd been out with him/her for a good few hours and realised that they had put the hours in and didn't know how to panic.

I am interested if a commercial rib isn't carrying passengers the presumaby it's carrying goods and that then makes it a workboat.

[DGR]

Not being funny, but under the new regs, being a workboat isn't the point.

If you are work boat (no pax, no cargo) you are still covered by MCA regulations. If it is a fact of life (which it is) then fine - no problem. BUT - why do the RYA approve to a different level? And if they do, why is that not acceptable to other organisations that can do their own risk assessments?

As I've said previously - it's inconsistent.

D...

P.S. Sorry for the typo's, pi**ed as a conker!!

[Rogue Wave]

The RYA level of approval hasn't caught up with the MCA. Previous to last year you could get a local authority charter ticket which had a strict examination of the craft but didn't require the carrying of a liferaft. That lticket usually covered an area of 30 miles from the point of origin. These have been suspended in our area in deference to the MCA.

Your point however is very valid and I can't answer it so I am gonna send a link to this thread to John Mendez and maybe he can comment. My view is that they would align themselves with the regulations in due course.

What was the name of the RYA school that took you out without a Radio?

I would imagine the workboat codes are a lot stricter as you would come under the Maritime equivalent of the health and ssafety at work laws, but I dunno

[DGR]

I'd be interested to know what the RYA response is.

As for the school, two other people who were on the course with me have disputed my recollection of the kit on board the boat - and as I'm neither perfect or infallible , I don't think it would be fair to name them.

However, even if I'm wrong and the RIB did have kit on it that I can't remember, all of us agree that the boat wouldn't have passed an MCA inspection. It's the inconsistancy that I find puzzling.

Dylan...

[Rogue Wave]

You got me going now! I just realised that if you are being trained on a yacht that has to be coded.

The RYA inspection is rather different from a coding survey.

During coding you have to conduct stability tests , the free board is measured and liferafts have to be checked for date. None of this occurs in an RYA inspection.

The main thrust of the RYA inspection is that the boat is seaworthy and carries adequate and current safety equipment, and has the right equipment for training a student. for example I should imagine a boat would fail if it didn't have a fixed compass.

Given the boat did have a radio what else was wrong with it, what type of boat was it?

Cheers

Stuart

[Ian]

I wouldn't start publishing to many details of the boat and/or operator.

[Paul Glatzel]

Dylan, on the point about the school you felt that was not carrying a suitable level of kit I would urge you (and anyone else who encounters what they see as shortcomings in a school) to contact Jon Mendez at the RYA. (jonathan.mendez@rya.org.uk or 0845 345 0400). As you will see at the RYA site, two schools have recently had their RYA accreditation removed evidencing that complaints are taken seriously.

Totally agree with Ian that it would be extremely unwise to refer to any school here that you are concerned about.

One of the key points made appears to be that the application of the codes and what they contain should be very much ‘black & white’. Whilst this is a fair point this is not always necessarily best.

Take an example: in the older codes the minimum transom height for a RIB was 30cm, theoretically therefore an Atlantic 75 could not be coded for commercial work. Code of Practice inspectors though applied common sense, assessed the risk and would rule on an individual basis according to their assessment of what they found.

Another good example is coding for night work, open boats can be coded to Cat 3 with suitable protection for the occupants (some form of tent structure tends to work). I’ve also come across boats Coded to Cat 3 with the stipulation that they must work in a pair and “favourable conditions”. The point being that a sensible interpretation is better that precise application and therefore is a very literal interpretation of the rules really best?

With regard to RYA boats. The RYA negotiated an exemption with the MCA to allow Training Centres to run a commercial operation without needing to fully code. In effect it is a variant of Cat 6 coding as it limits a crafts operation to 3 miles from its Nominated Departure Point but does allow night operation on the Advanced course. Given that this is a negotiated exemption and that Centres are annually inspected by RYA Centre Inspectors then these TCs are in effect running coded boats - its just a level of coding that ‘Joe Public’ can’t code to. Given that TCs have many other safety type ‘hoops’ to jump through to be TCs then you can be pretty certain that in visiting a TC you are visiting a safe operation. (there will always be the odd newsworthy exception). Schools running Advanced Courses need to run with boats suitable for that training and the Centre Inspector will closely assess the boats being used.

Whether the changes to the code will make any difference I don’t know but have emailed to find out.



Paul

[Ian]

Originally posted by Paul Glatzel
Another good example is coding for night work, open boats can be coded to Cat 3 with suitable protection for the occupants (some form of tent structure tends to work). I’ve also come across boats Coded to Cat 3 with the stipulation that they must work in a pair and “favourable conditions”. The point being that a sensible interpretation is better that precise application and therefore is a very literal interpretation of the rules really best?

Paul

Paul that's interesting, I hadn't heard of this. Cat 3 requires further equipment again to Cat 4 but assuming both/all ribs to be used had the correct equipment, this is possible.
I'll speak to parties to find out their views.

The only thing with interpretation is you can get many different opinions from surveyors. In my opinion the Codes should be 'black & white' as you mentioned.

[quinquarimarine]

Some wonderful and contstructive replies have been made on this thread.

My comments on do it 100% stand and this is borne by the problem we all have in being able to interpret the regs whilst understanding an individual surveyors understanding of the regs.

To be fair a good surveyor will look at each vessel and adopt a"pragmatic" application of codes relative to the boat, owner and appliaction. But at the end of the day we must all put ourselves in the terrible situation of a mojor accident/fatality.

then do apply

1. Will you on moral grounds be able to say that "I"dd my very best with no financial restrictions pertaining to equipement or operational/logistic proceedures.

2. Faced with a manslaughter charge in court can you demonstrate that you exceeded the codes.

A very difficult subject for all of us but as owners/managing agents the buck will stop at this door.

I was pleased to see a reply on "occasional" operators and the disgust that it caused.

My old barking about standards/quality/ticket price but vs taking out maverick operators apply.


What about John K putting a commercial operators forum in such a good site !!


As always cheers


John

[Ian]

Question:
On the stability test for coding a RIB where is the measurement taken from/to?
Sea level to:
A/ Top of Tube;
B/ Centreline of Tube;
C/ Top of Transom;
D/ Centreline of Transom;

If anyone really does know I would be very interested to hear from you on this thread or by PM. I have a very good reason for asking!!!

Thanks
Ian

[Pete7]

Ian, the two measurements are taken, top of the tube and height of transom. Quote from the yellow book:

"The freeboard of a rib should be not les that 300mm measured from the upper surface of the bouyancy tubes and not less than 250mm at the lowest part of the transom"

This asumes a fully loaded boat with fuel and pax etc.

Pete