Coding required?

ALANT · 26 January 2013, 07:52

Does a boat need to be coded if only I operate it and no one will ever be on the boat. More info thinking of doing marine photograph. ie commissioned to take photos?

I have seen some of the large companies who cover sailing events and there boats aren't coded (not at the time don't want to upset anyone).

No opinions on operating single handed please

biffer · 26 January 2013, 08:06

It would be a difficult one for the MCA to argue as you're on your own with no fares on board, they would say that you were earning money from your boat but there is no guarantee that that would be the case, my opinion in this case would be get your camera and start clicking and bugger them

Tim M · 26 January 2013, 10:49

The majority, if not all of the Cowes photographers are un-coded. I personally wouldn't worry about it.

ALANT · 26 January 2013, 11:02

Cheers guys,

Would have flares and most of the coding equipment probably not 2 anchors. but no liferaft (Hard enough turning on e over in a still pool never mind in something that has flipd a rib

).

Ok will look into this further.

Alan

Poly · 26 January 2013, 12:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim M

The majority, if not all of the Cowes photographers are un-coded. I personally wouldn't worry about it.

But they are probably operating in categorised waters. My understanding is: No need for coding/licensing in Categorised waters unless carrying paying passengers (then need one or other). Operating outside categorised waters then needs coded if being used commercially.

Quote:

Originally Posted by biffer

It would be a difficult one for the MCA to argue as you're on your own with no fares on board, they would say that you were earning money from your boat but there is no guarantee that that would be the case, my opinion in this case would be get your camera and start clicking and bugger them

As usual Biffer has a pragmatic solution. There is clearly a grey area: lets say I go on my boat I happen to take a picture and I sell it, nobody would really suggest I should be coded. Now if my professional photographer mate offers me £400 to drive him round for the day so he can take pics, almost everyone would agree it should be coded (at least outside categorised waters). But somewhere in the middle there is - you go out and intentionally take lots of pics with the purpose of selling them OR someone pays you upfront to go and take lots of pics of their boat/race. If you are developing a serious business around it though - you may be best to get official answer from MCA or just code to avoid the inconvenience / hassle.

Carl · 26 January 2013, 13:05

phone Mr.Beken on the iow,im sure he will know

biffer · 26 January 2013, 13:39

Belem definitely not coded have you seen him out amongst the boats

Carl · 26 January 2013, 13:48

takes a nice pic though

biffer · 26 January 2013, 14:14

Agreed

C2 RIBS · 26 January 2013, 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl

phone Mr.Beken on the iow,im sure he will know

Also he is using the company or owned boat and takes images himself. If he was to employ another boat then we would expect the other boat to be coded with qualified helm

willk · 27 January 2013, 12:57

OP - If I was you - I'd take the pics and keep schtum!

However, I think the question of does your boat need to be coded or not is another matter. If you are not strictly leisure, then you are, by default, commercial and as such, need to be coded to operate in non-catagorised waters. The coding can't be determined by you being the only operator - it will be based on the boat being used by any skipper to undertake commissioned work - commercial!

Doug Stormforce · 27 January 2013, 21:10

There is no grey area.

Opening para of 280 states

The Code has been developed for application to United Kingdom (UK) vessels of up to 24 metres Load Line length which are engaged at sea in activities on a commercial basis, which carry cargo and/or not more than 12 passengers, or provide a service in which neither cargo nor passengers are carried, or are UK pilot boats of whatever size.

If you hire yourself out as as a photographer with a boat then you are providing a service and would need to be coded. If however you happened to sell some photos that you had taken while you happened to be on a boat then the boat would not have had to be coded. If they commission you and your boat then your boat is providing a service which they are paying for.

I dont see much point in asking the Solent based yacht photographers, I suspect that several of them will not know what you are even talking about. In reality go and take some photos, get on with it, just don't charter the boat out with a photographer.

Skippy John · 28 January 2013, 05:04

In My view you are operating commercially and it would be an idea to speak to your insurers to ensure that you are covered to do what you're doing.

Additionally, you could always bite the bullet and ask the MCA Marine Office, Spring Place, for guidance and advice. That way you would have a definative response and proof which may be required at a later date.

I'm sure you could wrap the whole thing up in such a way that if you didn't like the answer they wouldn't know it was your query!

biffer · 28 January 2013, 06:50

If you are operating in the same area all the time just get a local authority licence

Poly · 28 January 2013, 07:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by biffer

If you are operating in the same area all the time just get a local authority licence

Do local authority licenses cover ALL commercial operations or only paying passengers?

biffer · 28 January 2013, 07:34

Not sure thinking about it, this is why I don't do anymore charter, they split hairs only to make it more difficult and more money, I'll go back to my original post and bugger them

Tim M · 28 January 2013, 07:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poly

But they are probably operating in categorised waters. My understanding is: No need for coding/licensing in Categorised waters unless carrying paying passengers (then need one or other). Operating outside categorised waters then needs coded if being used commercially.

I've never heard that one before. On that basis none of the Seastart boats operating in the Solent need to be coded, yet they are

Poly · 28 January 2013, 10:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim M

I've never heard that one before. On that basis none of the Seastart boats operating in the Solent need to be coded, yet they are

s94 Public Health Acts Amendment Act 1907
Public Health Acts Amendment Act 1907

Power to license pleasure-boats. E+W

(1)The local authority may grant upon such terms and conditions as they may think fit licences for pleasure boats and pleasure vessels to be let for hire or to be used for carrying passengers for hire, and to the [persons in charge of or navigating] such boats and vessels, and may charge [for each type of licence such annual fee as appears to them to be appropriate].

---
If your boat is broken down and Seastart give you a lift from the mooring back to shore is that "carrying passengers for hire"?

Poly · 28 January 2013, 10:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Stormforce

There is no grey area.

Opening para of 280 states

The Code has been developed for application to United Kingdom (UK) vessels of up to 24 metres Load Line length which are engaged at sea in activities on a commercial basis, which carry cargo and/or not more than 12 passengers, or provide a service in which neither cargo nor passengers are carried, or are UK pilot boats of whatever size.

If you hire yourself out as as a photographer with a boat then you are providing a service and would need to be coded. If however you happened to sell some photos that you had taken while you happened to be on a boat then the boat would not have had to be coded. If they commission you and your boat then your boat is providing a service which they are paying for.

I dont see much point in asking the Solent based yacht photographers, I suspect that several of them will not know what you are even talking about. In reality go and take some photos, get on with it, just don't charter the boat out with a photographer.

I agree that Commissioned or Hired out is commercial basis, and that a few leisure shots you take and later sell is not... ...but do you not think that there is a grey area when the number of shots you take is high enough (assuming you are selling them) that you could be making profit? or how about if I set up a competitor site to boatpics.com or whatever its called in the solent and just appear to be selling pics for profit even if I sell very few or make less than my fuel etc costs...

willk · 28 January 2013, 12:08

I think you've got bogged down in a grey area Poly. The point is not whether you are commercial or not, it's are you leisure or not. If you're not strictly leisure (and 280 explains Leisure in some detail) then you are, by default, Commercial. There is no grey area. If you take your craft "to sea" to profit from your presence there (excludes commercial fishing) then you are Commercial. If you happened to be at sea (for Leisure) and you took a newsworthy photo and sold it later, nothing changes - you're still Leisure. If you put to sea as a photojournalist to do a day's freelance work, you're Commercial.

It's a question of Intent, and so the honesty of the operator is obviously a factor.

Personally, I'd keep it to myself and snap away, honestly!