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Old 11 May 2010, 03:51   #21
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Just to throw a spanner in here.

Every employer has a duty of care to employees and to protect the public.

Health and safety act work at.
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Old 11 May 2010, 04:04   #22
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You as operators could produce a generic risk and method statement for every event.
the size of a telephone directory.
The chances are nobody will ever want to see it or read it.
a paper copy on board and a paper copy in your place of business and a copy on the computer that can be updated as and when things change or indeed another risk comes to light.


However one small accident however...small

And the HSE... Solicitors ....The courts everybody will be going through it with a fine tooth comb
trying to find even the smallest detail to lay blame at somebody's door and then of course
compensation. claims all round.
For the sake of covering yourself in paper you could save everything and lose nothing.
and best of all producing such a document to an insurance company will show your on the ball and may reduce insurance premiums.
Who knows write a bit and save a bit of hard earned cash.
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Old 11 May 2010, 04:32   #23
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It strikes me yet again, that this forum has a wealth of expertise and talent.

In order to protect both customers and the operators, could "we" come up with a specimin document that gives protection for both. Whilst I am sure operators have their own documents, we wont always see it from either the expert legal side or necessarily the customers.

I/we are not after something for nothing, I just think that from the sensible comments made so far and the diverse backgrounds of the members, a top class document could be produced that could be a shinning light for the industry.

OK, so now shoot me down ....

Steve
Steve, I'm not sure if there is a trade body who might be interested in pulling together such a thing? Such a document could then be presented as industry best practice - rather than a bunch of guys who thought it was a good idea. Failing that - do it yourself, and you can become the example everyone else looks up to.

The aim must surely be to avoid the accident rather than avoid the litigation. The route to reducing your (insurers) liability in litigation is by showing you did everything reasonably possible to reduce and manage the risk of injury.

If I was in your/C2's shoes I'd consider adding pictures of how to sit correctly on the seat, together with bullet points about do / don't etc. As well as highlighting medical conditions of concern on a form which collects peoples details (the marketing side of my brain would also want to capture their email addresses etc for future promotions!).

I'm not sure if you do this on one form per person, or one per trip. If it is one per trip then it is probably impossible to give 12 people reasonable time to digest and ask questions about the content - say 1-2 minutes per person, that could be nearly 25 minutes before you've even covered lifejackets etc.

Personally I'm much less likely to walk away from something like this after I have paid my money. Not sure where you do your safety briefings but if they are on the pontoon or on-board that may be too late for many people to bother telling you about their dodgy back, pregnancy, pace maker etc... Unfortunately whilst it might scare away some customers I think this really needs to be up front - before your get their payment, albeit probably with a further option for a refund if you/they decide it is not appropriate closer to boarding.

Presumably fat heart-disease-ridden asthmatics can participate in some "styles" of rib trip safely (e.g. Sea Safari in good weather), but not in the thrill ride style events. You may need to distinguish the difference between them.
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Old 11 May 2010, 04:48   #24
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It's a very complicated affair safety and the law.

However with the right paper work your protected in all events.

As for how to sit in the rib maybe a small laminated card of instructions under each seat.
takes a few seconds to look at replace and away you go.

The forms for injury and acceptance can be given out and signed before payment either on the day as passing trade or online bookings is made ..

Left onshore in a safe place that can be accessed by those whom need the information
Safety is not as easy as it used to be as were all now a claim society .
Be safe or sorry.

Fin

Robert
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Old 11 May 2010, 05:00   #25
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Thanks Guys

As those that have been out with us might vouch, we have cards in the front of every seat that shows not only pictures and text of how to sit correctly, but also life jacket and life raft instructions.

What I fear, is the bits I have missed not through lack of thought, but what I dont know.

Steve
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Old 11 May 2010, 05:23   #26
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Robert - you've obviously been on too many courses in the building trade:

Quote:
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It's a very complicated affair safety and the law.
Not really - identify the risk, mitigate the risk, monitor and record what you are doing. Its actually extremely simple. Ask any HSE inspector and they'll tell you - the complexity in paperwork comes from consultants making money out of the industry.

Quote:
However with the right paper work your protected in all events.
its not about the paperwork - what matters is the content/substance/attitude. Paperwork doesn't avoid accidents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 250kts
As those that have been out with us might vouch, we have cards in the front of every seat that shows not only pictures and text of how to sit correctly, but also life jacket and life raft instructions.
I saw Andre mention that in a recent post and it seemed like a good idea. But once I'm sitting in the seat reading the card am I likely to get back off? Its great to reinforce the point though.
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Old 11 May 2010, 05:30   #27
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All tricky stuff.
then there's the DDA stuff
Disabled Disability Act.?

Yep I have to keep on doing the courses.

As you said paperwork does NOT prevent accidents.
But shows you will have a known plan in the event.
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Old 11 May 2010, 05:47   #28
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Paperwork doesn't avoid accidents.
It doesn't but it covers your backside if you do have an accident.

If you have the paper work to be working in a specific area on a site and your working safely and someone else injures you and they have a permit its their fault.
If your in that area and the same accident occurs because of the other persons neglect and you didn't have the correct paper work it would be your fault because you shouldn't have been there.
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Old 11 May 2010, 06:21   #29
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It doesn't but it covers your backside if you do have an accident.
yes point was its too easy to focus on having the right bits of paper rather than on avoiding the accident in the first place. In reality the paperwork will only CYA if it is suitable and sufficient anyway - which means understanding the problem and risk!
Quote:
If you have the paper work to be working in a specific area on a site and your working safely and someone else injures you and they have a permit its their fault.
little consolation if you're the one in hospital!
Quote:
If your in that area and the same accident occurs because of the other persons neglect and you didn't have the correct paper work it would be your fault because you shouldn't have been there.
Only if they didn't know you were there / at risk - otherwise whilst you're in the wrong for being somewhere you shouldn't they are not faultless.

The permit-to-work system is the system it happens to be a paper based way of controlling the risk - but it is not about paper - its about control. its also generally not appropriate to small RIB ride operations!
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Old 11 May 2010, 06:33   #30
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What I'm getting at is that even if you understand the risks and the precautions to take these need to be outlined in a Risk Assesment and how your going to reduce the risk.
If I was running a RIB ride business I'd have a risk assesment for each run off. This would be simple to fill in regards sea state, wind force, where you would be operating, it would also have a generic section stating the potential hazards.
Once completed everyone who boarded the boat would have a safety brief and sign the RA.

Regards been the one in hospital, I'd much rather have a bit of paper saying I had the right to work where I was. Granted you may still get injured but you can then claim against your company.
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