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Old 02 June 2015, 16:06   #11
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What you haven't covered is the most likely MOB scenario on a RIB - sudden, unexpected, relatively high speed.

In those circumstances I reckon the chances of locating and pulling a small toggle in a timely fashion are greatly reduced. For my risk assessment the benefits of an automatic vastly outweigh any potential disadvantages.
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Old 02 June 2015, 16:16   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Kennett View Post
What you haven't covered is the most likely MOB scenario on a RIB - sudden, unexpected, relatively high speed.

In those circumstances I reckon the chances of locating and pulling a small toggle in a timely fashion are greatly reduced. For my risk assessment the benefits of an automatic vastly outweigh any potential disadvantages.

Ijohn i think you have subtly covered why ribbers should be fully automatic.


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Old 02 June 2015, 16:21   #13
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On a rib I would say auto. A manual might be ok for a professional .
But like me I had a 1 st time ribber on board even though I went through the workings of the LJ if they had been dumped out last week I don't think they would have been in a fit state to pull cords.
Guess each type of LJ has its place
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Old 02 June 2015, 16:28   #14
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If you are out in company and not offshore a good P.F.D. is another option and you don't have to worry about being able to pull the cord or the auto malfunctioning.

Also gives you extra insulation in colder weather.
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Old 02 June 2015, 16:41   #15
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Doug Stormforce - you have quoted an isolated part of my (2) posts and in doing so have lost the essence of what I was saying. You'll note that the OP was referring to a commercial environment - I was assuming a RIB as that is what he runs. Do I think manual LJs have a use, sure I do - for safety boat drivers, pilots, kayakers - whatever. Do they have a role in the referred environment - IMO, no way. The user in this situation will not have bought the lifejacket as per your scenario, they will have been handed it and it needs to work if they enter the water. They might be a kid, or old, or disabled. They may just be plain scared. An auto will almost always work but a manual requires presence of mind and ability to react (I'm not a huge fan of Hammars any more for the reasons you state and use UM units)

On a more important note, I fail (entirely) to understand how unexpected deployments can be factored into your risk analysis? I'd rather have a wave induced deployment every now and then than have a client fail to deploy a manual in the water even once in my career.
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Old 02 June 2015, 17:27   #16
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Quote:
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On a rib I would say auto. A manual might be ok for a professional .
But like me I had a 1 st time ribber on board even though I went through the workings of the LJ if they had been dumped out last week I don't think they would have been in a fit state to pull cords.
Guess each type of LJ has its place
I agree with you and the Wilk ...Auto when all considered is best on a RIB.
Must get the missus an Auto sometime!
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Old 02 June 2015, 18:26   #17
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Doug Stormforce - you have quoted an isolated part of my (2) posts and in doing so have lost the essence of what I was saying.
No I did not. I quoted part of your post and i commented on that bit, just as I am doing here.

And I don't think i suggested manuals were better.


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When you purchase a LJ, it is important you understand the pros and cons of each.

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I'm not saying manuals are better, however i believe they have several advantages over autos, just as auto have their own advantages.
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On a more important note, I fail (entirely) to understand how unexpected deployments can be factored into your risk analysis? I'd rather have a wave induced deployment every now and then than have a client fail to deploy a manual in the water even once in my career.
If you don't see unexpected deployment as a problem, why don't you simply pre inflate the LJ before you go out? Some of the downsides are
  • They are bulky, cumbersome and restrict movement around the boat
  • Each gas inflation causes wear to the LJ
  • Once a LJ is inflated it is not easy to re arm onboard a RIB at sea
  • It is far harder to climb into a RIB wearing an inflated LJ
  • As a driver wearing a kill cord, it is far harder to swim after a RIB if you are wearing an inflated LJ having been ejected

I totally agree an auto is good if a customer falls overboard. Again I am not saying manuals are better, simply adding some balance to the discussion. They are in my opinion far from "useless." It should be noted however that all inflating LJs have a fail rate, if you really want to guarantee floatation then consider a foam filled LJ
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Old 02 June 2015, 18:58   #18
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[*]It is far harder to climb into a RIB wearing an inflated LJ[*]As a driver wearing a kill cord, it is far harder to swim after a RIB if you are wearing an inflated LJ having been ejected
I think you've got your risk assessment back to front!

A conscious, competent and able person who is hindered by their life jacket can choose to deflate it (and reinflate by mouth if required). [Although actually it might be better to look at single manning and re-boarding issues!]

Unless its flat calm, or you are wearing wetsuit and fins or a professional swimmer chances of catching a rib after an exit at speed are pretty low anyway. A mentality that encourages you to put off pulling the cord because it will impede swimming or reboarding sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Kennett
What you haven't covered is the most likely MOB scenario on a RIB - sudden, unexpected, relatively high speed.
I reckon JK's wrong! The only time I've gone MOB or seen anyone else MOB from a "RIB" has been at very low speed, and quite predictable: boarding, disembarking, transfers between boats, mooring etc.

But he is right:
Quote:
In those circumstances I reckon the chances of locating and pulling a small toggle in a timely fashion are greatly reduced.
Even in that situation my auto had triggered before I've even worked out what happened.

I also think the point above applies - it "feels" safe to be in the harbour or right next to the mooring so you save the 15 quid on rearming or try to reduce the embarrassment, but the person in the water probably isn't best placed to assess their risk/situation.

The only time a manual (might) make sense is if it going off (e.g. in an upturned cabin) would make matters worse, or if you are intentionally getting in the water.
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Old 03 June 2015, 02:31   #19
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Auto lifejackets?

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I reckon JK's wrong! The only time I've gone MOB or seen anyone else MOB from a "RIB" has been at very low speed, and quite predictable: boarding, disembarking, transfers between boats, mooring etc.
Fair point. I was thinking more of victims of gArf's ribflikka masheen!

High speed or low, it's still likely to be unexpected which is different from a more considered "abandon ship" situation which you might get with a bigger boat.
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Old 03 June 2015, 03:08   #20
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Has anyone actually tried to set off a manual jacket after a dunking? I have, several times & find it difficult to find & actually pull the toggle this is after doing helicopter escape training in a pool with a drysuit & rebreather on
And seeing as this is a rib forum it's fair to assume your unlikely to get stuck in a cabin
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