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Old 27 March 2007, 03:05   #11
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[QUOTE=codprawn;192482] Windmills are just so inefficient - too windy they don't run - not windy enough they don't run. Typically a windfarm only produces something like 25% or a 1/4 of it's rated power. So when you see that a cartain windfarm produces 350Mw you have to divide that by 4 before you start!!!

The Nissan factory in Sunderland had installed 6 wind mills to provide power 1 of these burnt down but the other 5 are providing enough power to make up the shortfall i.e. 120% of their specified output.
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Old 27 March 2007, 03:12   #12
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Codders is right about wind power. I'll try to dig out some sources, but over the lifetime of a turbine (which is significantly less than the lifetime of a 'conventional' powerstation), it costs more.
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Old 27 March 2007, 04:21   #13
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Ecological concerns: http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/Ne...t/24080501.asp

Negative economic effects: http://www.ref.org.uk/pressrelease.php?id=17

Cost comparrison of methods of generation: http://www.raeng.org.uk/news/publica...Commentary.pdf
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Old 27 March 2007, 04:56   #14
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puts on RSPB hat

Windmills are a definite menace to migrating and resident birdlife if sited in the wrong place . They have killed sea eagles in Norway and I also believe Scotland ! That's a bit of a downer when so many folk would love to see these magnificent birds soaring around our coasts .
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Old 27 March 2007, 04:57   #15
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Agree everything Codders says. have another idea- build a big wall all around the Uk and use the tides to act as high and lows with reversable turbines (in and out).. This will also serve as a "Hadrians " wall to keep all the foreigners out. Dont know what to do about the Scots.. Land entry to the UK will be controlled thru one access point about a meter wide..........Cargo can be unloaded on the wall.... The idea is fascinating. Also will have a protectd interior lagoon for ribbers......

Jonathan
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Old 27 March 2007, 05:39   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sixy_the_red View Post
Cost comparrison of methods of generation: http://www.raeng.org.uk/news/publica...Commentary.pdf
So codders is right! The cost (excluding the "its not always windy - so need an alternative factor (the true cost of which is hotly debated)" is <4p/kWh). The RAE report is not taking into account any subsidies. It also works out the cost of gas generation at 23p per therm - which was sensible when the report was written (with a +/- 20% tolerance) however - natural gas prices went crazy in 2006 and were more than double this. The price has settled back down again - but the cost of gas fluctuates almost as much as the wind speed!
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Old 27 March 2007, 05:40   #17
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Windmills are a definite menace to migrating and resident birdlife if sited in the wrong place . They have killed sea eagles in Norway and I also believe Scotland ! That's a bit of a downer when so many folk would love to see these magnificent birds soaring around our coasts .
You may well be right - and I am not arguing that windmills are the only or the best solution, but they are a realistic option as part of the total package.
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Old 27 March 2007, 05:50   #18
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Nuclear subsidy ceased in 1996.

The costs for decomissioning are way over the top - let's face it - disposal of a car these days is out of all proportion due to OTT environmental regs.

To give an idea of how little nuclear waste is allowed to escape not long ago nuclear contamination was detected on Windscale(nuke reprocessing plant) beach. the sensors went beserk - the actual cause of the "leak" turned out to be a luminous dial from a WWII bomber - not long ago people wore stuff like this on their wrists!!!

The Dead Sea is considered by many to have healing properties - as do many health spas etc - often the radioactivity of the water is over a 1,000 times higher than the waste they used to discharge before it was banned.

As to how the figures are calculated have a look at this.

http://www.countryguardian.net/ROC%2...202006%201.htm

Cod - not sure I understand the country guardian argument - if I understand it correctly then they are saying the true cost of generating power by wind is around 4.3p/kWh which is what I said (but through subsidy the producer effectively gets nearer to 9p/kWh). Although its hardly an independent source in any case.

As for nuclear energy safety being OTT. I think you will have to accept that IF we get new nuc power stations they will be just as tightly regulated and controlled and just as thoroughly decomissioned - otherwise they would never meet with public approval (regardless of whether that is right or wrong).

Cod - I think we are almost in violent agreement. I support much of the argument for nuclear. I can even be convinced that it would be worthwhile to subsidise it to reduce our carbon footprint. I just don't buy into your - I think windfarms are ugly and therefore I will find a way to justify my dislike on ecconomic grounds arguments. If you think they are ugly just say it.
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Old 27 March 2007, 08:09   #19
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I also dislike wind turbines, they are remarkable inefficient and expensive for what they are and produce.
Unfortunately air is a very low density medium so you will never get huge amounts of power from it.
They are trying to build hundreds of the b***gers up here and although hydro power has is environmental impacts as well at least it is far more compact, cost efficient and reliable.
What I don't understand is that Scotland already generates twice the power it needs so why are we having to put up hundreds of huge turbines as well?
If folk really want to get serious about reducing greenhouse gases then insulation and energy efficient equipment and buildings will help far more than building different generating facilities, reduce the load and then worry about how to satisfy it!
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Old 27 March 2007, 08:56   #20
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Cod - I think we are almost in violent agreement. I support much of the argument for nuclear. I can even be convinced that it would be worthwhile to subsidise it to reduce our carbon footprint. I just don't buy into your - I think windfarms are ugly and therefore I will find a way to justify my dislike on ecconomic grounds arguments. If you think they are ugly just say it.

I have said many times how ugly they are - but only in certain places.

IF they could build a truly offshore windfarm that couldn't be seen from land AND made sound economic sense I would be all for it. Out at sea they would be great places to visit in a RIB.

Sadly I just don't think they work out.
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