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Old 18 September 2007, 07:57   #21
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Volvo 940 with 2 over 60's in it.... when have you ever seen one of these going over 55mph... bet they where in the middle lane too.
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Old 18 September 2007, 12:50   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexm View Post
It might be true to say that from the perspective of one car the impact is equivalent to hitting an immovable mass at 70 mph however in the example of two cars each travelling at 70mph the relative closing speed IS 140 mph... that is to say that two cars heading towards each other at 70mph each will create the same impact as one car travelling at 140mph hitting the other car when it is stationary.

No no no!!!

Think about it - you hit a concrete block at 70mph - you stop dead. You hit another car both doing 70mph - you stop dead. Now if you are doing 70mph and the car you hit is doing 80mph then you go backwards at 10mph.

It's called an inelestic collision. Lets assume a car has 20,000 units of energy at 70mph. When it stops it has 0 units of energy. It loses 20,000 units very rapidly. The other car has 20,000 units of energy - it also loses all it's energy. 20,000 hitting 20,000 = 0. If the car was doing 140mph it would have 40,000 units of energy.
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Old 18 September 2007, 13:23   #23
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Police closing motorways again

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/6998191.stm

This was an extremely nasty accident - a car drove the wrong way down the motorway and hit another car head on - 5 dead.

The Police were chasing the Volvo before it turned the wrong way down the motorway - the Police then stopped the chase - bit late methinks. 2 innocent people in a Mondeo killed.


Codprawn,
try reading the bbc report again and see if you got the story right.
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Old 18 September 2007, 13:29   #24
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Police closing motorways again

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/6998191.stm

This was an extremely nasty accident - a car drove the wrong way down the motorway and hit another car head on - 5 dead.

The Police were chasing the Volvo before it turned the wrong way down the motorway - the Police then stopped the chase - bit late methinks. 2 innocent people in a Mondeo killed.


Codprawn,
try reading the bbc report again and see if you got the story right.
Initially they did say it was the volvo they were chasing - now it turns out it was the Mondeo.
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Old 18 September 2007, 14:15   #25
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Originally Posted by codprawn View Post
No no no!!!

Think about it - you hit a concrete block at 70mph - you stop dead. You hit another car both doing 70mph - you stop dead. Now if you are doing 70mph and the car you hit is doing 80mph then you go backwards at 10mph.

It's called an inelestic collision. Lets assume a car has 20,000 units of energy at 70mph. When it stops it has 0 units of energy. It loses 20,000 units very rapidly. The other car has 20,000 units of energy - it also loses all it's energy. 20,000 hitting 20,000 = 0. If the car was doing 140mph it would have 40,000 units of energy.
Yes yes yes!!!

Actually if it was doing twice the speed it would have FOUR times the energy as kinetic energy is proportional to the square of the velocity, however... I think we need some proofs!... If you don't like physics you should look away now...




Let's make a few assumptions:

1) Car 1 is identical to Car 2 and each does 10m per second and weighs 1000kg...
2) The collision is perfectly inelastic, i.e. they do not 'bounce' apart, rather they crumple and 'stick' together

Scenario 1) Car 1 hits Car 2, both are doing 10 m/s toward each other

Total kinetic energy = 2 x (0.5 x 1000 x 10^2) = 100kJ

As the cars are identical and the forces in any collision are equal and opposite (Newton III) the energy absorbed by each car will be the same. We can also summise that due to conservation of momentum that the two cars will be stationary after the collision. Hence each car will have to absorb 50kJ of energy.



Scenario 2) Car 1 is doing 20m/s and car 2 is stationary

Total kinetic energy = 0.5 x 1000 x 20^2 = 200kJ

This is double the kinetic energy of scenario 1.... BUT conservation of momentum means that after the collision the mangled ball of wreckage of the two cars will still be moving!

Momentum before = momentum after

1000 x 20 = 2000 x velocity_after :. velocity_after = 10m/s

So the kinetic energy of the wreckage = 0.5 x 2000 x 10^2 = 100kJ

So, the energy absorbed by both vehicles in the crash = total kinetic energy before - kinetic energy of the wreckage

200kJ - 100kJ = 100kJ, so the energy absorbed by each car is still 50kJ



Scenario 3) Car 1 is doing 10m/s and hits a brick wall

This situation is entirely different as the wall will absorb no energy and, like scenario 1, the car is going to come to a complete halt so it will have to absorb all the energy.

Total energy = 0.5 x 1000 x 10^2 = 50kJ

The car must still absorb 50kJ of energy


So I say again... two cars heading towards each other at 70mph each will create the same impact as one car travelling at 140mph hitting the other car when it is stationary.
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Old 18 September 2007, 14:33   #26
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but what if cods was in a 260 tonne marble bath at 70mph
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Old 18 September 2007, 19:04   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alexm View Post
Yes yes yes!!!

Actually if it was doing twice the speed it would have FOUR times the energy as kinetic energy is proportional to the square of the velocity, however... I think we need some proofs!... If you don't like physics you should look away now...




Let's make a few assumptions:

1) Car 1 is identical to Car 2 and each does 10m per second and weighs 1000kg...
2) The collision is perfectly inelastic, i.e. they do not 'bounce' apart, rather they crumple and 'stick' together

Scenario 1) Car 1 hits Car 2, both are doing 10 m/s toward each other

Total kinetic energy = 2 x (0.5 x 1000 x 10^2) = 100kJ

As the cars are identical and the forces in any collision are equal and opposite (Newton III) the energy absorbed by each car will be the same. We can also summise that due to conservation of momentum that the two cars will be stationary after the collision. Hence each car will have to absorb 50kJ of energy.


Scenario 3) Car 1 is doing 10m/s and hits a brick wall

This situation is entirely different as the wall will absorb no energy and, like scenario 1, the car is going to come to a complete halt so it will have to absorb all the energy.

Total energy = 0.5 x 1000 x 10^2 = 50kJ

The car must still absorb 50kJ of energy


So I say again... two cars heading towards each other at 70mph each will create the same impact as one car travelling at 140mph hitting the other car when it is stationary.

Nothing wrong with your maths - you have just PROVED I was right!!! You say a car colliding head on absorbs 50kj - you also say one hitting a concrete block will absorb 50kj - that's the SAME amount of energy - if the car was travelling at 20m/s and hit a concrete block the energy absorbed would be much higher!!!
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Old 18 September 2007, 19:34   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by codprawn View Post
Nothing wrong with your maths - you have just PROVED I was right!!!


I think what we have here... is failure to communicate!

Ed2 said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ed2 View Post
Two cars hitting head on. Both probably doing around (at least) 70mph. Therefore probably 140mph at least impact..
You said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by codprawn View Post
Thats a very common misconception. The impact is NOT 140mph.

I said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexm View Post
in the example of two cars each travelling at 70mph the relative closing speed IS 140 mph... that is to say that two cars heading towards each other at 70mph each will create the same impact as one car travelling at 140mph hitting the other car when it is stationary.
You said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by codprawn View Post
No no no!!!
My proof shows without a shadow of a doubt that two cars each travelling at 70mph will suffer the same impact as one car travelling at 140mph and hitting a stationary car which is what it appeared you were 'no no no'ing at!

I never had any issue with your concrete block statement.
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Old 18 September 2007, 20:07   #29
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Please do not prove codders wrong. It would be the first time in his life and he may have a heart attack; and you would be responsible!!!!!
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Old 18 September 2007, 20:29   #30
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When I am wrong I always admit it - there has been the very rare occasion - the reason being I make sure of my facts BEFORE I post anything!!!
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Old 18 September 2007, 21:03   #31
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I think what we have here... is failure to communicate!



I never had any issue with your concrete block statement.
Very true!!!
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Old 18 September 2007, 21:20   #32
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Would you care to comment on the rest of that post?

Namely:

Quote:
Originally Posted by codprawn View Post
Thats a very common misconception. The impact is NOT 140mph.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alexm View Post
It might be true to say that from the perspective of one car the impact is equivalent to hitting an immovable mass at 70 mph however in the example of two cars each travelling at 70mph the relative closing speed IS 140 mph... that is to say that two cars heading towards each other at 70mph each will create the same impact as one car travelling at 140mph hitting the other car when it is stationary.
Quote:
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No no no!!!
Come on, I went to the trouble to derive the proof for my statement for you, you owe me and the rest of the readers a concession at the very least!
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Old 18 September 2007, 21:22   #33
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When you said a stationary car I thought you meant an immovable object - so many people think that 2 cars colliding head on at 70mph = 1 car hitting an immovable object at 140mph. so I jumped to the conclusion that was what you meant as well - sorry!!!
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Old 18 September 2007, 21:24   #34
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I jumped to the conclusion that was what you meant as well - sorry!!!


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Old 18 September 2007, 21:28   #35
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When I am wrong I always admit it - there has been the very rare occasion - the reason being I make sure of my facts BEFORE I post anything!!!

or perhaps you meant to say that you will say sorry if pushed and pushed or it is laid out clear that you were wrong so you cant deny it?!?

nice clear description Alexm well done
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Old 18 September 2007, 21:36   #36
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or perhaps you meant to say that you will say sorry if pushed and pushed or it is laid out clear that you were wrong so you cant deny it?!?

nice clear description Alexm well done
Not at all but if that's the typical reaction I get................
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Old 18 September 2007, 21:41   #37
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Cod - the reason for a detailed accident investigation is fairly straight forward - if as you imply in your message the police were wilfully negligent in their pursuit then there is a potential manslaughter charge their against the relevant officers - such a charge would be difficult without all the correctly gathered legal evidence. There was also one surviver (I believe in the suspect vehicle) - and he may be subject to prosecution also. I can imagine your post here about police incompetence (or cover ups) in a years time when the prosecution collapses because the removed the evidence so as not to hold you up. So - wind your neck in and just be grateful you weren't heading down the m-way at 3am and suddenly meet something coming the other way.

This accident happeaned just down the road from us and the car had been chased from Penhow - its only 1 - 2 miles to the motorway from here. We have had a lot of police activity here at night recently due to car crime armed robbery etc all over the past 2 weeks (when I called the police when my car was being broken into at 5am two weeks ago 3 police cars were all here within 3 mins - not bad for a rural village)

The scary thing about this one was that my wife had left for cardiff airport at 3:30 am when me and the kids woke up at 7am and turned on the radio and heard the story your mind starts to wonder - only made worse when mobile goes straight to answer machine - luckily she rang when she landed before panic set in any further.

If any of you know the Coldra roundabout there is no way you could mistake the entry exit slip roads...
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Old 18 September 2007, 21:54   #38
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Thats why I am against the Police chasing car thieves etc - that's what they often want and it's so tragic when someone innocent gets killed - I always USED to think it was quite right for the Police to chase the little shits - until I saw a car being chased almost hit a car coming the other way with 3 kids in it - must have missed by inches - then I totally changed my thinking - most nicked cars are worth a few hundred quid at most - is a human life REALLY worth that?

Gald your family were ok Scrumdown!!!
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Old 18 September 2007, 22:27   #39
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Hmm... arguments aside I dont think many of you can deny Codders has a bit of a point here.

The problem is that our cops and society are soo litigious becoming that they (cops) cant take any chances when it comes to evidence gathering.

The big problem is that very often they still fook up proceedings no matter how long they've taken to gather that evidence
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Old 18 September 2007, 22:27   #40
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Maybe they should use a few of those expensive Police helicopters to catch the scrotes. That is after they've been fitted with TOW missiles and 20mm Gattling cannons.
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