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Old 20 November 2014, 04:18   #1
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Parking ticket help!!

The other day I parked in the Britannia car park next to piplers of poole. (8:40am) did not leave my car and left it running so at 9:00am I left the car for no more than one minute to ask for change from notes in piplers.

Couldn't get change so left immediately at 9:01am.

They have photos and times of entry and exit.

Question is if from the moment I entered I didn't leave my car and left it running can they fine me?

No one else got in or out if the car.

Looked up the BPA codes of conduct but can't find anything.

Thanks in advance!
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Old 20 November 2014, 05:28   #2
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You probably won't get a definitive answer here, but if you go to PePiPoo: Helping the motorist to get justice and have a read you'll find lots of interesting stuff! It's an absolute mine of information, and you'll be able to get advice from people who have lots if experience dealing with this sort of thing.
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Old 20 November 2014, 06:15   #3
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Agree with John - plenty of ideas on PePiPoo.

An intersesting case starting at the moment: Legal battle over 'illegal' car park fines could spark refunds for millions | Daily Mail Online

Last time I ended up appealing, the operator rejected initially (as you'd expect!), I appealed to POPLA (or whatever they are called), citing contract law and the fact that the fine can't be punitive and must be a result of an actual cost incurred, and that went straight through and got the fine cancelled.
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Old 20 November 2014, 07:11   #4
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I don't think leaving the engine running or not leaving the car exempts you from paying for the space that you were using.
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Old 20 November 2014, 08:03   #5
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Originally Posted by jokaboat View Post
I don't think leaving the engine running or not leaving the car exempts you from paying for the space that you were using.
Highway Code rule 123 says: You MUST NOT leave a parked vehicle unattended with the engine running or leave a vehicle engine running unnecessarily while that vehicle is stationary on a public road. Generally, if the vehicle is stationary and is likely to remain so for more than a couple of minutes, you should apply the parking brake and switch off the engine to reduce emissions and noise pollution. However it is permissible to leave the engine running if the vehicle is stationary in traffic or for diagnosing faults.

i.e., it is A Naughty Thing to do in its own right!
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Old 20 November 2014, 08:55   #6
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If this works just fill out you details and send it off worked for me in similar case

If this is not clear email me & I will send a copy as a word doc!


Your address
Without prejudice, except as to costs

Notice to Keeper PCN No. ********
On Date I was the registered keeper of a car details.

Before I decide how to deal with your Notice to Keeper, I should be grateful if you would first answer all the questions and deal with all the issues I have set out below. Once you have done so, I will be able to make an informed decision on how I deal with the matter.

I dispute the parking charge for the reasons set out below. Please note that although I dispute the whole basis of the parking charge, my main concern is its disproportionate and punitive level.

1. No contract

There was no contract between the driver and Civil Enforcement Ltd. The driver did not see any contractual information on any signs when entering the car park and therefore at that time had no idea that any contract or restrictions applied. As a consequence the requirements for forming a contract such as a meeting of minds, agreement, and certainty of terms were not satisfied.

2. Trespass

If there was no contract, then at most the driver was guilty of a civil trespass (though this is neither admitted nor denied). If this were the case, the driver may be liable to damages. Given that no ‘damage’ was done to the car park and that the car park was not completely full when the driver parked or when the driver left, there was in fact no loss at all.

3. Punitive/unfair/unreasonable charge

Even if there was a contract (which is denied), the following matters are relevant:

3(a). Punitive

The parking charge you are imposing is punitive and therefore void (i.e. unenforceable). The **** parking charge is arbitrary and disproportionate to any alleged breach of contract or trespass. This would also apply to any mention of any costs incurred through debt recovery unless it followed a court order.


3(b). Unfair

The *** parking charge you are imposing is an unfair term (and therefore not binding) under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. In particular, Schedule 2 of those Regulations which gives an indicative (and non-exhaustive) list of terms which may be regarded as unfair and includes at Schedule 2(1)(e):

‘Terms which have the object or effect of requiring any consumer who fails to fulfil his obligation to pay a disproportionately high sum in compensation.’

Furthermore, Regulation 5(1) says:

‘A contractual term which has not been individually negotiated shall be regarded as unfair if, contrary to the requirement of good faith, it causes a significant imbalance in the parties' rights and obligations arising under the contract, to the detriment of the consumer’

And 5(2), which states:

‘A term shall always be regarded as not having been individually negotiated where it has been drafted in advance and the consumer has therefore not been able to influence the substance of the term.’

3(c). Unreasonable

The *** parking charge you are imposing is an unreasonable indemnity clause under section 4(1) of the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977, which says:

‘A person cannot by reference to any contract term be made to indemnify another person (whether a party to the contract or not) in respect of liability that may be incurred by the other for negligence or breach of contract, except in so far as the contract term satisfies the requirement of reasonableness.’

Further information I require you to provide and take notice of:

Please note specifically that this letter is not an appeal however, it is a challenge to the issue of the Notice to Keeper as set out in the BPA AOS Code of Practice B.22. I should be grateful for answers to all questions raised. In this respect I remind you of the obligations set out in the current Practice Direction on Pre-Action Conduct.

4(a). Cause of action.

Please make this clear. If it is your claim that the driver entered into a contract, please send me a complete version of the terms and conditions of that contract to which you say the driver agreed to.

4(b). Further to the above please explain fully on which of the following grounds your claim is based:

(i) Damages for trespass
(ii) Damages for breach of contract
(iii) A contractual sum
5. Your loss.

If it is your case that that a trespass was committed or that a contract was breached such that your claim is one for damages, please give me a full breakdown of the actual loss you say was suffered by your business or the landowner/landholder.

6. Appeals procedure.

I require a copy of any appeal procedure you follow, along with details of what factors you take into account; who is the judge or arbitrator and whether they are independent; whether you require oral or written submissions; whether it is governed by the Arbitration Act 1996 and any other relevant factors. In addition, please give me disclosure of any arguments you would put forward on this matter in any subsequent appeal process so that either the registered keeper or the driver might consider his or her response to any existing or new issues which are raised.


7. Your status.

Your Notice to Keeper simply mentions Civil Enforcement Ltd Please tell me who is the actual creditor making this *** parking charge demand. I need to know exactly who is making the claim and in what capacity.

8. Ownership of premises.

Please tell me who owns the car park as I wish to send them a copy of this letter.
9. Contract to operate.

Please provide me with a copy of the contract between your company and the landowner/landholder.
10. Involvement of landowner/landholder.

Please explain any involvement, if at all, of the landowner/landholder with the management of parking at this site and specifically with regard to the issue and enforcement of your Notices to Keeper.
11(a). Photographs- handling.

Your notice refers to ‘photographic evidence’. Please send me a copy of your procedures for handling and processing that evidence and the relevant audit trail. Furthermore, under section 7 of the Data Protection Act 1998 please send me a copy of all such photographs along with a copy of all other data you hold relating to me. As this would be required to be disclosed in any event as part of your evidence bundle in the small claims process, I do not expect to pay for the release of my personal data which you hold.
11(b). Photographs – evidence.

The copies of the photographs that you have provided along with the Parking Charge Notice merely show my vehicle entering and leaving the car park but do not show the actual alleged parking contravention on which your Parking Charge Notice has been issued. Please therefore provide me with copies of all photographs that evidence the actual alleged parking contravention itself

12. Signage.

If it is your case that a contract has been breached or that a contractual sum is now due, please send me photographs of the signs that you display and upon which you seek to evidence that a lawful and legally enforceable contract was been entered into. Please ensure that the photographs show the terms and conditions in a clear and legible manner. Please provide me with a diagram showing the locations and layout of those signs at the car park. Also provide evidence that the wording is in plain and intelligible language and in sufficiently large print as to be legible to a driver at the car park’s entry point.
13. Legal representation.
Please provide me with the name and address of your solicitors, if any, in order that I may copy them into this correspondence.




14. To avoid doubt, please do not do any of the following:
(i) Send any further correspondence or documents to me or try to communicate with me in any way except to address in writing the specific points I have raised in this letter.
(ii) Send me any document purporting to be from the county court unless it is a valid claim form duly issued.
(iii) Write to me threatening to send bailiffs to my address without first issuing a court claim form and obtaining judgment.
(iv) Send me any standard letters from your company or debt collectors.
15. If you wish to make a claim you may do so online. My address for service is set out at the top of this letter. If you do decide to issue proceedings, please note that:
(i) I reserve the right to add further arguments to the defence
(ii) I or my representative will be happy to attend any court mediation that might be offered.
16. I look forward to receiving your acknowledgement within 14 days and a comprehensive reply within 35 days (in accordance with the BPA AOS Code of Practice B.22.8). I will then be able to make an informed decision as to how I shall respond to your Notice to Keeper.
17. If you reject this challenge or fail to address the issues that have been raised then, in accordance with the BPA AOS Code of Practice 22.12, please ensure that you enclose all the required information (including the necessary ‘POPLA code’) so that I may immediately refer the matter for their decision.
18. If you fail to follow any of the procedures outlined in the BPA AOS Code of Practice or your legal requirements under the Protection of Freedoms Act, or the requirements of the Practice Direction on Pre-Action Conduct then I will make a formal complaint to the DVLA Data Sharing Policy Group, D16.
Please Note: Unless you have specifically requested it and received my express permission, you do not have my authority to disclose or refer this letter or any other communication from me to any other person or organisation.
Yours
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Old 20 November 2014, 09:14   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukewhiting View Post
The other day I parked in the Britannia car park next to piplers of poole. (8:40am) did not leave my car and left it running so at 9:00am I left the car for no more than one minute to ask for change from notes in piplers.

Couldn't get change so left immediately at 9:01am.

They have photos and times of entry and exit.

Question is if from the moment I entered I didn't leave my car and left it running can they fine me?

No one else got in or out if the car.
As JK says there are other forums that specialise in this stuff. Beware there is a lot of misinformation on the web, partly because the law changed not that long ago and so some people who think they are right are regurgitating out of date information, others are just totally misinformed!

However you might want to look at the bits I highlighted in bold as they don't appear to be consistent - which may undermine your credibility.
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Old 20 November 2014, 09:40   #8
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As John says use PePiPoo: Helping the motorist to get justice

Wealth of stated cases and law info to follow. Used then before to challenge a couple of tickets and won each one
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Old 20 November 2014, 09:42   #9
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Cheers guys! Will let you know how I get on
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Old 20 November 2014, 10:02   #10
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My ticket was a year last August 2013 so things may have changed, but I sent this off and got a letter back saying case closed!
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