Ouzo report and trial

[codprawn]

This tradgedy just goes on and on. The officer of the watch on the Pride of Bilbao was found not guilty I am pleased to say. Pleased as there was no evidence to say it was actually their ship that caused the ACCIDENT.

It seems the MCA haven't escaped blame either.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/h...re/7125755.stm

The Coastguard response to the tragedy was "seriously inadequate"

# Only beginning a helicopter search for other possible survivors after six hours.

# Failing to broadcast to other shipping in the area to join in a search effort for other possible survivors.

# At midnight they failed again to search for survivors after the girlfriend of Mr Meaby contacted MRCC Solent to express concern that he and his two friends had not arrived at their destination.

# Ignoring police advice that the discovery of the body suggested a yacht could have been sunk.

# Failing to instruct the fishing vessel that found Mr Meaby's body to pull him out of the water to see if there was any chance of resuscitation.

Very worrying.

The men had lifejackets on - useless with no means to communicate. You MUST have something attached to you at ALL TIMES - wether it be flares - a VHF or that thing that most people have in their pockets - a mobile phone. Yes I AM going to mention freezer bags again - 5p to possibly save a life. It may not have worked in this case - 7 miles out - but it might have!!!

[Rogue Wave]

Originally Posted by codprawn

The men had lifejackets on - useless with no means to communicate. You MUST have something attached to you at ALL TIMES - wether it be flares - a VHF or that thing that most people have in their pockets - a mobile phone. Yes I AM going to mention freezer bags again - 5p to possibly save a life. It may not have worked in this case - 7 miles out - but it might have!!!

Fair poit I think I maight stick my trump in my lifejacket

[Simon B]

Not to appealing if you have to manually top it up!

[Rogue Wave]

Originally Posted by Simon B

Not to appealing if you have to manually top it up!

http://www.bosuns.co.uk/store/showpa...NumberID=86370

[codprawn]

Wow that should put the wind up some old Grannies on the bus!!!

[havener]

As usual with these sorts of enquiries, more questions are asked than answered.

I think the verdict was the right one - from what I've read, there did seem to be very little substantial evidence to suggest the Bilbao was involved. The tanker might have a few more questions to answer though.

I haven't seen the ops room transcript from Solent MRCC so won't comment on their actions, but there are always lessons to be learnt after every incident.

To me, it reiterates one thing - I really do believe that for all boats based in UK ports it should be mandatory to carry a self-releasing EPIRB. I can't say with anything other than a gut feeling is that in this case, it may have saved lives.

The RYA also issued a statement that craft should look at the effectiveness of their nav lights. How true - belive me, from the bridge of a large vessel your average leisure boat nav lights are pisspoor.

Of course the best way to be seen in the first place is to fit a good radar, and have it running - I appreciate this would be outside many people's budgets to retrofit, but when you look at the costs of a new yacht or motorboat, a couple of grand on radar and EPIRB wouldn't make much of a difference.

The other main thing to remember though is three families have lost their loved ones. The best thing we could do for them is to learn the lessons, and help avoid other families being in the same position in future.

[C2 RIBS]

Good points well made, the best options must be personnal EPIRB and they start about £300, or a hand held waterproof VHF AND mini flares. All an option but worth your life

[codprawn]

I disagree with a self releasing EPIRB - they are great for a conventional sinking but aren't much good for a capsize which is what happens to most RIBs. A PLB is the obvious choice.

The same goes for liferafts - not much use in a capsize.

Thinking about it the tanker could well have been the culprit - it is almost impossible not to notice the Pride of Bilbao - it's lit up like a Christmas tree!!!

[havener]

My reservation about personal EPIRBs is that if something went wrong quicky on a lovely summers day, they would probably be in a locker not on the person needing them. Also, how do you ensure every crew member / passenger has one - would get expensive quickly.

Codders (if I may call you that ) not sure about the problem with self releasers -we've trialled them in all sorts of situations and trust me, they've released from ribs and pilot boats capsized on a crane strop without any problems, as they have on capsizes on ocean yacht races.

Still be better than nowt though!

[C2 RIBS]

So you would opt for a self release beacon on the boat and not carry EPIRB clipped to lifejacket

[havener]

Commercially, we do both - the vessels have them (SOLAS requirement) and deck crews have them on lifejackets. I do the same on my own rib.

But then most people don't have that kind of cash. If one person on a boat had a personal EPIRB, and the boat didn't, it's harder to track drift etc for search patterns than the other way round. Also, what happens if you have 3 personal EPIRBS for your family, and auntie joins you for the day?

Also, the signal stregth, information burst and endurance of boat EPIRBS would give a lot more info for SAR coordinators to work on.

[C2 RIBS]

Makes sense, I carry radio/ mini flares personally and looking at next level for boat/crews. Have fitted large Tri Lens but like all radar refectors I have yet to find one reported as meeting all standards although each one has strengths and weaknesses

[havener]

An odd thing to carry on a rib is a large roll of kitchen foil.

If you ever break down in shipping lanes, wrap the foil around the A frame as if wrapping a parcel.

Turst me, radars WILL see you. We've tried it and the results are amazing...

[Poly]

Originally Posted by havener

An odd thing to carry on a rib is a large roll of kitchen foil.

If you ever break down in shipping lanes, wrap the foil around the A frame as if wrapping a parcel.

Turst me, radars WILL see you. We've tried it and the results are amazing...

Have you written this experiment up at all? I recall reading about an experiment covering the bulkheads in GRP boats with foil - to the same end (but intended as a permanent fit) and it made no positive difference (to get a good return from a single flat surface it needs to be perfectly normal to the beam). I can see that there would be a difference above/below the water line. Many people will have a space blanket on board anyway so if this is reliable (i.e. visibile at all angles) it could be useful.

Of course the best way to be seen in the first place is to fit a good radar, and have it running

do you actually mean - don't rely on someone else spotting you - spot them? or are you claiming that it is easier to spot small boats with functioning radar when on the deck of your ship - and if so can you please explain the mechanism for that?

[havener]

Originally Posted by Polwart

do you actually mean - don't rely on someone else spotting you - spot them? or are you claiming that it is easier to spot small boats with functioning radar when on the deck of your ship - and if so can you please explain the mechanism for that?

Yes to both!

Of course, the best line of defence is keeping a good, 360 degree lookout - it's amazing the number of yachts who don't seem to look behind them. Never, ever rely on having been seen - doesn't matter what the ColRegs say, don't put yourself into a stand on situation if you can help it.

On the radar front, most bridge radar systems will display when they have been "painted" by a radar beam - both on S and X band. This is linked with the ARPA collision avoidance system, so yes, operating your radar will draw the attention of suitably equipped vessels to your presence.

No, we haven't written up the experiment as we didn't conduct it formally - I believe work is being done on this by other agencies buy I don't want to say who as they're doing it for purposes other than rescue!

Simon

[Poly]

Originally Posted by havener

most bridge radar systems will display when they have been "painted" by a radar beam - both on S and X band.

am I missing something but the beam is transmitted and detected from a rotating scanner - for the radar on your ship to detect the (hypothetical) radar on my boat your receiver needs to be pointing at my transmitter at exactly the moment I am transmitting. The effect of pulses must compound that - so how likely is it that your radar is pointing at mine - in "listening mode" at the exact moment (allowing for the time it takes for the radiation to travel from mine) that mine is transmitting. If my simple maths are right and the beam width is say 5 degrees - then > 98% you are not listening (in my direction) and >98% of the time I am not transmitting (in your direction). At first glance it strikes me that you have a 1:5000 chance of picking up my radar beam on your radar - and that is before I think about your radar and my radar working at different rotational speeds or pulse lengths.

Or am I being a bit thick tonight?

[Rogue Wave]

surely if they are working at different rotational speeds that would increase the chance of detection. If they are rotating at the same speed and not aligned the they never will be, or am I be bit thick as always

[codprawn]

I assume they have radar detectors on board?

As to waving foil around you can get flares that release a chaff cloud - also handy if someone fires an Excocet at you.............

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Rogue Wave

surely if they are working at different rotational speeds that would increase the chance of detection. If they are rotating at the same speed and not aligned the they never will be

Yes RW I think, as usual, you are correct.

[Rogue Wave]

Originally Posted by Polwart

Yes RW I think, as usual, you are correct.

wow.cool I take that as a compliment

BTW I think those chaff flares would be a good idea I wonder if the manufacturers have any test results from ships radars