Anti 4x4 Brigade - Page 6

Jeff Pike · 26 March 2006, 08:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by codprawn

If planes used so much fuel how come you can fly to Rome for about £10???

Cos the flights are subsidised. Most of the cheap flights go into secondary airports. The local authorities pay the airline to fly there - more people - boosts the local economy. Some of the French airports wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the North Europeans tripping down to buy houses, etc. Air France has been trying to stop a lot of the flights on the basis of unfair competition.

Icing on the cake for the operators is the plastic food & booze everyone buys on the flights.

Sorry you can't use low cost as an arguement against planes adding to polution.

Poly · 26 March 2006, 08:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Pike

Cos the flights are subsidised.

I don't think the flights are subsidised. The airports are subsidised so that the airline doesn't have to pay some or all of the normal landing charges.

Roycruise - was in the right ball park:

http://www.howstuffworks.com/question192.htm

the green lobby even have calculators:

http://www.climatecare.org/calculators/flights_calc.cfm

so you can check how much damage you are doing.

I just checked and the impact of me driving from home to Ribnet and back this year would be identical regardless of whether I drive with 2 people in the car or fly on one of these "heavily" subsidised airlines.

Neil

Hightower · 26 March 2006, 08:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polwart

I don't think the flights are subsidised. The airports are subsidised so that the airline doesn't have to pay some or all of the normal landing charges.

Roycruise - was in the right ball park:

http://www.howstuffworks.com/question192.htm

Neil

That means my 4x4 that normaly does 25 mpg with me driving does 100 mpg when the family's on board......The same economy as a 747, Wicked!

Nos4r2 · 26 March 2006, 09:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alice

It's dragging all that extra transmission around that does the damage with the 4x4's.

That's why you have automatic freewheeling front hubs and selectable 2/4wd- the extra weight doesn't make a lot of difference . I always preferred having manual locks on front hubs (even lesss drag) but very few vehicles are left that have them.

Hightower · 26 March 2006, 09:11

It's not just fiction within the 4x4 transmission system that affects mpg but the size and type of tyres and the brick like shape most 4x4's are styled on.Put all these factors together and voila poor mpg.

Bigmuz7 · 26 March 2006, 11:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nos4r2

That's why you have automatic freewheeling front hubs and selectable 2/4wd- the extra weight doesn't make a lot of difference . I always preferred having manual locks on front hubs (even lesss drag) but very few vehicles are left that have them.

Would'nt be my preference, cos when you need em, your already axle deep lol

codprawn · 26 March 2006, 13:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigmuz7

Would'nt be my preference, cos when you need em, your already axle deep lol

Funnily enough LandRover USED to use that system from 1940s until 1983 - now they use real fourwheel drive - be nice when other people catch up.....

DGR · 26 March 2006, 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by codprawn

Tell me about it!!!

If planes used so much fuel how come you can fly to Rome for about £10???

Just looking at a new exec jet that has hit the market. It will carry 6 people and all their luggage 1500 miles on the same amount of fuel my RIB will go 400 miles on - and at 470mph!!!

Because 200 people at £10 per person.........buys quite a lot of fuel.

Because aircraft fuel isn't taxed in the same way as the fuel us ground huggers consume is - so it is MUCH cheaper...

And because it isn't the amount of stuff jet engines emit - it's what form it's in. The theory is that when fuel is burned at altitude, a lot of the emissions are ionised (charged) so that they have a much bigger effect on greenhouse gases and ozone destruction. Apparently...

And how much fuel does your RIB use to go 400 miles? The jet aircraft that I used to work with would burn over 3,000l of AvGas in an hour. It took me a whole summer to go through that much diesel...

codprawn · 26 March 2006, 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by DGR

Because 200 people at £10 per person.........buys quite a lot of fuel.

Because aircraft fuel isn't taxed in the same way as the fuel us ground huggers consume is - so it is MUCH cheaper...

And because it isn't the amount of stuff jet engines emit - it's what form it's in. The theory is that when fuel is burned at altitude, a lot of the emissions are ionised (charged) so that they have a much bigger effect on greenhouse gases and ozone destruction. Apparently...

And how much fuel does your RIB use to go 400 miles? The jet aircraft that I used to work with would burn over 3,000l of AvGas in an hour. It took me a whole summer to go through that much diesel...

A packed airbus has to be cheaper to run that a double decker bus with 2 passengers on board!!! Many bus services are subsidised and they don't pay duty on the fuel either.

My RIB will prob use about 105 gallons to go 350 miles. The new exec jet I am on about will do 1500 miles on the same amount.

I have to be honest I thought there was a prob with fuel burned at altitude until the greens started saying the contrails were even worse!!!

DGR · 26 March 2006, 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by codprawn

My RIB will prob use about 105 gallons to go 350 miles. The new exec jet I am on about will do 1500 miles on the same amount.

Which jet is that? I struggle with the concept that any jet powered aircraft only uses 0.3 ltr per mile. A RIB however......now that would be nice...

Quote:

Originally Posted by codprawn

I have to be honest I thought there was a prob with fuel burned at altitude until the greens started saying the contrails were even worse!!!

Erm...the contrails are the result of the fuel burn......it's water vapour and exhaust gases that leave the trail - and because they are ionised, they are bad...

Same thing really.

D...

codprawn · 26 March 2006, 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by DGR

Which jet is that? I struggle with the concept that any jet powered aircraft only uses 0.3 ltr per mile. A RIB however......now that would be nice...

Erm...the contrails are the result of the fuel burn......it's water vapour and exhaust gases that leave the trail - and because they are ionised, they are bad...

Same thing really.

D...

Actually about 0.5l per mile - still not bad!!!

http://www.eclipseaviation.com/eclip...pecifications/

New budget exec jet that will bring such travel to the masses - built using latest technologies and mass produced - they have advanced orders for 2,000!!! Work out at about $1,200,000 which IS dead cheap for such a plane!!!

Contrails are NOT only result of fuel burn - you can just as easily get them from wingtips!!! Even a hydrogen burning engine would leave a contrail - it is purely steam.

CJL · 26 March 2006, 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alice

I'm no 'Anti', both of our cars are 4x4. But, no way are MPV's as juicy as 4x4's. Our's do 25ish, one will nudge 30mpg on a run. My Old Man has a VW T4 Camper 2.5TDI that does 36ish and 42 on a run. It has the Aero dynamics of a barn door. It's dragging all that extra transmission around that does the damage with the 4x4's.

So I'm doing the same MPG as you are whilst I'm towing!! Very environmentally friendly.

Chris

CJL · 26 March 2006, 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by roycruse

Air travel ??? - I heard that per person per mile jumbos burn less fuel than a 50cc moped...

Please tell me you don't honestly believe that???

We are gonna have to move on to the education system to gripe about in a minute!!

I work very close to Heathrow and in some weather conditions you can TASTE the AvGas in areas of Hounslow!!!!! Brown exhaust trails head off into the distance after every plane.

Plus Heathrow is a city in its own right and all their impact on the environment needs to be taken into account too.

C

CJL · 26 March 2006, 17:11

After looking up the price of AvGas I have decided to splash out and buy the new Mercury engine.

It runs on AvGas a whole host of other stuff. If you ran out of juice you could get a round in at the yacht club bar and you'll be back on the water faster than you could say Jim Bean!

Chris

Poly · 26 March 2006, 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJL

Please tell me you don't honestly believe that???

Roy's not far off - see my earlier post.

However, as you say not as simple the carbon emission per person.

Interesting (but quite detailed) report here:

http://www.sei.se/aviation/SEI-Aviation-Report.pdf

discusses impact of height differences etc.

NEIL