Another yes or no question: this time on tests for powerboaters

[Rokraider]

After reading the last yes or no question.
What are the views on whether anyone using a powerboat should be required to pass a driving, handling and basic navigation test first?

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Rokraider

After reading the last yes or no question.
What are the views on whether anyone using a powerboat should be required to pass a driving, handling and basic navigation test first?

Is it that time of year again?

Some of the reasons why this is a bad idea:

- How would it be enforced? Either it wouldn't or responsible boaters are paying to police the rest who will just move areas where they are unlikely to get caught.
-What makes you think a basic competence test would improve average skills actually displayed on the water? Evidence from the roads is that even with licensing, much higher traffic density (and thus risk), easier policing, etc there are still a significant number of people ignoring the rules.
- A basic competence test will not encourage people to keep learning beyond the basics - but is likely to entitle them to 'drive' a wide variety of boats in all sorts of conditions (just as the road driving test is always sat in daylight, reasonable weather and usually a small car - but the day after passing you can drive a 3.5 tonne van on a motorway)
- There are relatively few powerboat accidents in the UK. Nobody has provided any evidence from countries with licensing/testing that it would fall significantly.
- At what point does a boat become a powerboat? e.g. a sailing boat using its engine? a tender going to a sailing boat? why not all boats - after all yachts are just as likely to be a problem as powerboats: what about sailing dinghies though - are you going to license a 9 yr old in an Oppie? or windsurfers? or kayaks?

[Trimix]

No.

It would be cumbersome to enforce, costly and not make much difference to safety.

You cant teach common sense, never mind enforce it.

[Pikey Dave]

I think the general consensus of the collective, is that any question that includes the word "compulsory" will generally result in a NO vote.


.....sh1t happens.......

[paddlers]

Originally Posted by Pikey Dave

I think the general consensus of the collective, is that any question that includes the word "compulsory" will generally result in a NO vote.


.....sh1t happens.......

Definite no. The nanny state & the eu regulate too much as it is !!

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by paddlers

Definite no. The nanny state & the eu regulate too much as it is !!

[Starovich]

while i think the "wisdom" here will say no, I say yes.
The idea of ticket collecting is not the point, any licence shows that at some point you have proved that you understand and can answer the questions relevant to the topic.

Usually this means training/coaching or experience, so instead of going out with a fist full of cash and no clue and buying a boat capable of 50 knots and promptly hurting yourself or others or putting others at risk fetching you in bad conditions, you show some degree of understanding. OK you can still be a cock and do all the wrong things but you have shown you understood what should/should not be done.

I don't think there are many here who would not advocate a PB2 for a first timer, so I still at a loss why so many people say no?

[Dhf]

Originally Posted by Starovich

while i think the "wisdom" here will say no, I say yes.
The idea of ticket collecting is not the point, any licence shows that at some point you have proved that you understand and can answer the questions relevant to the topic.

Usually this means training/coaching or experience, so instead of going out with a fist full of cash and no clue and buying a boat capable of 50 knots and promptly hurting yourself or others or putting others at risk fetching you in bad conditions, you show some degree of understanding. OK you can still be a cock and do all the wrong things but you have shown you understood what should/should not be done.

I don't think there are many here who would not advocate a PB2 for a first timer, so I still at a loss why so many people say no?

I fully agree!

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Starovich

so instead of going out with a fist full of cash and no clue and buying a boat capable of 50 knots

how often do you think this happens? and why do you think it would not happen if someone passed a test in a SR4 with a 25HP on the back 15 yrs ago? exactly this sort of thing happens on the roads both with the young and naive "boy racers" passing their test and smacking it into trees, and with "born again bikers" - licensing doesn't stop either.

...and promptly hurting yourself or others or putting others at risk fetching you in bad conditions...

and how often are totally inexperienced people (who would have no hope of passing a test) actually hurt (or cause injury) or need rescued in challenging conditions.

[Rokraider]

I am not surprised by the general response. There is little skill required to trundle round in a RIB with a handful of mates, its like driving a car round a field.

[steco1958]

Originally Posted by Rokraider

I am not surprised by the general response. There is little skill required to trundle round in a RIB with a handful of mates, its like driving a car round a field.

hahahahaha,

Hope they don't go on the Menai Straits then.

The problem with your argument is that Tarmac usually does not move and you don't have to worry about what is underneath it, unlike in a rib

[Starovich]

Originally Posted by Poly

how often do you think this happens? and why do you think it would not happen if someone passed a test in a SR4 with a 25HP on the back 15 yrs ago? exactly this sort of thing happens on the roads both with the young and naive "boy racers" passing their test and smacking it into trees, and with "born again bikers" - licensing doesn't stop either.

and how often are totally inexperienced people (who would have no hope of passing a test) actually hurt (or cause injury) or need rescued in challenging conditions.

Born again bikers HAVE passed a test.... As to whether they should take refresher course is a different question.

I personally know of quite a few people who were in challenging conditions needing assistance, as i have assisted them.

As to what is challenging, that depends on skills and experience force 9 gale can be as challenging to some as coming into the beach in an onshore wind is to others.

If you had kids would you want them in the water near a numpty in any sort of prop based vessel, 3, 30 or 300 hp all can do serious damage. Anything that can be done to reduce the inherent dangers of boating has to be to the benefit of all.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Starovich

Born again bikers HAVE passed a test.... As to whether they should take refresher course is a different question.

OK, so now its going to be a regular test? Because the fact they HAVE passed a test is precisely my point.

I personally know of quite a few people who were in challenging conditions needing assistance, as i have assisted them.

and had they all got absolutely no previous knowledge or experience? Were they all in motor boats?

If you had kids would you want them in the water near a numpty in any sort of prop based vessel, 3, 30 or 300 hp all can do serious damage.

You don't need a prop to do damage* although it helps. I prefer to take the view that if I don't know someone's ability I assume they are a numpty and keep the kids away from them - in much the same way as I don't encourage the kids to play on the motorway or the middle of supermarket car parks! Just because someone passed a test at some point in the past doesn't mean they won't mince you or your loved ones today.

Anything that can be done to reduce the inherent dangers of boating has to be to the benefit of all.

As a philosophy its hard to argue with although if you want zero danger then best stay on shore. And whilst I understand a series of logical statements can get you to the "fact" that licensing everyone with a powerboat can make the world safer, in the absence of any evidence to that effect I don't believe it will. Licensing is in place in many countries and their accident rates are no better than here. Boating is a pretty safe activity anyway - I've said it before but will say it again - for most people here it is much more likely that you are killed driving to your boat / towing it to the sea than using it.

* I can assure you a wayfarer dinghy hitting your head at 5 knots really hurts!

[Maximus]

Originally Posted by Poly

OK, so now its going to be a regular test? Because the fact they HAVE passed a test is precisely my point.
and had they all got absolutely no previous knowledge or experience? Were they all in motor boats?


You don't need a prop to do damage* although it helps. I prefer to take the view that if I don't know someone's ability I assume they are a numpty and keep the kids away from them - in much the same way as I don't encourage the kids to play on the motorway or the middle of supermarket car parks! Just because someone passed a test at some point in the past doesn't mean they won't mince you or your loved ones today. As a philosophy its hard to argue with although if you want zero danger then best stay on shore. And whilst I understand a series of logical statements can get you to the "fact" that licensing everyone with a powerboat can make the world safer, in the absence of any evidence to that effect I don't believe it will. Licensing is in place in many countries and their accident rates are no better than here. Boating is a pretty safe activity anyway - I've said it before but will say it again - for most people here it is much more likely that you are killed driving to your boat / towing it to the sea than using it.

* I can assure you a wayfarer dinghy hitting your head at 5 knots really hurts!

....I think that's an "A" for Mr P!

[mick]

It's a No for me it doesn't matter how many tests exams etc you do if your a muppet you will still be a muppet

[Starovich]

Nope not all powerboats, dinghy's 6 -20ft, Yachts, biggest 64 feet Powerboats, ribs up to 40 feet, windsurfers, swimmers, climbers, Rowers Fresh water and salt, northern and southern hemisphere both sides of the prime meridian.

BUT

This is a rib forum.

You mentioned Bikers, as i said, retests are a different question.

You can argue 20 ways from sunday and bring up all sorts of tangents my point still stands.

When ALL the voices here all say "NO, DON'T do a PB2 its pointless" then ill stop saying I think certification as a method of testing knowledge which demonstrates understanding and ability is good thing.


Go on Poly, start advocating the avoidance of PB2

[Starovich]

Originally Posted by mick

It's a No for me it doesn't matter how many tests exams etc you do if your a muppet you will still be a muppet

But a muppet that has show they CAN do it right, whether they do or not is a different thing.

[John Kennett]

Originally Posted by Starovich

When ALL the voices here all say "NO, DON'T do a PB2 its pointless" then ill stop saying I think certification as a method of testing knowledge which demonstrates understanding and ability is good thing.

But no one is saying that training is pointless are they?

I think we're all pretty much in agreement that it's good to know what you're doing, but the majority don't agree that compulsory licensing would be practical or particularly helpful.

[Starovich]

Originally Posted by John Kennett

But no one is saying that training is pointless are they?

I think we're all pretty much in agreement that it's good to know what you're doing, but the majority don't agree that compulsory licensing would be practical or particularly helpful.

As any teacher/instructor will tell you only via testing (which can take many forms) can he/she know if the lessons taught have been understood and the abilities taught have been learnt.

The evidence of this is usually in the form of a certificate (in our case PB2 being the de facto) which is already practical as is done on a daily basis. The fact that a standard skill level which is accepted as a base is helpful as everyone understand what is required.
Of course people can be fools, as in anything and no one can legislate for that.

[Poly]

Originally Posted by Starovich

Nope not all powerboats, dinghy's 6 -20ft, Yachts, biggest 64 feet Powerboats, ribs up to 40 feet, windsurfers, swimmers, climbers, Rowers Fresh water and salt, northern and southern hemisphere both sides of the prime meridian.

the OP's question is specific to powerboat certification - the point I made earlier is certifying powerboats isn't going to solve 80% of the "perceived problem".

...and bring up all sorts of tangents my point still stands.

and you've still no evidence it will actually make a blind bit of difference.

When ALL the voices here all say "NO, DON'T do a PB2 its pointless" then ill stop saying I think certification as a method of testing knowledge which demonstrates understanding and ability is good thing.

I'm not sure if you meant that to sound like a shift in position. Nobody is suggesting PB2 is pointless. The issue is whether making it mandatory would be a good idea.

Go on Poly, start advocating the avoidance of PB2

I'm generally a big fan of the PB2 course but I'm not going to suggest it is the only way to get that knowledge. eg. I don't think the RNLI use the RYA scheme so you'd be telling an Atlantic 75 helm that he had to go and sit a test; or a Pac22 helm from the Navy... or a BSAC Diveboat helm... etc People should get training and experience appropriate to the type of vessel they will use etc.

Depending how you define "powerboat" I expect any boat with an engine is included - but the handling and characteristics of a yachts and a RIB are rather different! Alternatively yachts are exempt up to a certain engine size, but is the tender with a 3HP engine on it thats only ever used for 100m in a sheltered bay? I certainly wouldn't argue that everyone with a 3HP tender should do a PB2 course - would you? Similarly I wouldn't expect someone who just did a PB2 course in a SR4 + 30HP engine would jump in a 60ft 600HP twin engine powerboat and actually be safe but thats what 'licenses' with entitlement would effectively say. A training course, attended voluntarily, should leave the participant with no doubt that if they want to do something rather different then seeking out further training would be wise.

So I've never heard anyone identify a problem which any realistic licensing/testing scheme would actually convincingly address.