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Old 13 October 2014, 11:34   #11
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I am not surprised by the general response. There is little skill required to trundle round in a RIB with a handful of mates, its like driving a car round a field.

hahahahaha,

Hope they don't go on the Menai Straits then.

The problem with your argument is that Tarmac usually does not move and you don't have to worry about what is underneath it, unlike in a rib
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Old 13 October 2014, 11:48   #12
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how often do you think this happens? and why do you think it would not happen if someone passed a test in a SR4 with a 25HP on the back 15 yrs ago? exactly this sort of thing happens on the roads both with the young and naive "boy racers" passing their test and smacking it into trees, and with "born again bikers" - licensing doesn't stop either.

and how often are totally inexperienced people (who would have no hope of passing a test) actually hurt (or cause injury) or need rescued in challenging conditions.
Born again bikers HAVE passed a test.... As to whether they should take refresher course is a different question.

I personally know of quite a few people who were in challenging conditions needing assistance, as i have assisted them.

As to what is challenging, that depends on skills and experience force 9 gale can be as challenging to some as coming into the beach in an onshore wind is to others.

If you had kids would you want them in the water near a numpty in any sort of prop based vessel, 3, 30 or 300 hp all can do serious damage. Anything that can be done to reduce the inherent dangers of boating has to be to the benefit of all.
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Old 13 October 2014, 12:31   #13
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Born again bikers HAVE passed a test.... As to whether they should take refresher course is a different question.
OK, so now its going to be a regular test? Because the fact they HAVE passed a test is precisely my point.
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I personally know of quite a few people who were in challenging conditions needing assistance, as i have assisted them.
and had they all got absolutely no previous knowledge or experience? Were they all in motor boats?

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If you had kids would you want them in the water near a numpty in any sort of prop based vessel, 3, 30 or 300 hp all can do serious damage.
You don't need a prop to do damage* although it helps. I prefer to take the view that if I don't know someone's ability I assume they are a numpty and keep the kids away from them - in much the same way as I don't encourage the kids to play on the motorway or the middle of supermarket car parks! Just because someone passed a test at some point in the past doesn't mean they won't mince you or your loved ones today.
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Anything that can be done to reduce the inherent dangers of boating has to be to the benefit of all.
As a philosophy its hard to argue with although if you want zero danger then best stay on shore. And whilst I understand a series of logical statements can get you to the "fact" that licensing everyone with a powerboat can make the world safer, in the absence of any evidence to that effect I don't believe it will. Licensing is in place in many countries and their accident rates are no better than here. Boating is a pretty safe activity anyway - I've said it before but will say it again - for most people here it is much more likely that you are killed driving to your boat / towing it to the sea than using it.

* I can assure you a wayfarer dinghy hitting your head at 5 knots really hurts!
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Old 13 October 2014, 12:53   #14
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OK, so now its going to be a regular test? Because the fact they HAVE passed a test is precisely my point.
and had they all got absolutely no previous knowledge or experience? Were they all in motor boats?


You don't need a prop to do damage* although it helps. I prefer to take the view that if I don't know someone's ability I assume they are a numpty and keep the kids away from them - in much the same way as I don't encourage the kids to play on the motorway or the middle of supermarket car parks! Just because someone passed a test at some point in the past doesn't mean they won't mince you or your loved ones today. As a philosophy its hard to argue with although if you want zero danger then best stay on shore. And whilst I understand a series of logical statements can get you to the "fact" that licensing everyone with a powerboat can make the world safer, in the absence of any evidence to that effect I don't believe it will. Licensing is in place in many countries and their accident rates are no better than here. Boating is a pretty safe activity anyway - I've said it before but will say it again - for most people here it is much more likely that you are killed driving to your boat / towing it to the sea than using it.

* I can assure you a wayfarer dinghy hitting your head at 5 knots really hurts!
....I think that's an "A" for Mr P!
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Old 13 October 2014, 13:57   #15
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Old 13 October 2014, 14:50   #16
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Nope not all powerboats, dinghy's 6 -20ft, Yachts, biggest 64 feet Powerboats, ribs up to 40 feet, windsurfers, swimmers, climbers, Rowers Fresh water and salt, northern and southern hemisphere both sides of the prime meridian.

BUT

This is a rib forum.

You mentioned Bikers, as i said, retests are a different question.

You can argue 20 ways from sunday and bring up all sorts of tangents my point still stands.

When ALL the voices here all say "NO, DON'T do a PB2 its pointless" then ill stop saying I think certification as a method of testing knowledge which demonstrates understanding and ability is good thing.


Go on Poly, start advocating the avoidance of PB2
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Old 13 October 2014, 14:52   #17
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It's a No for me it doesn't matter how many tests exams etc you do if your a muppet you will still be a muppet
But a muppet that has show they CAN do it right, whether they do or not is a different thing.
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Old 13 October 2014, 15:11   #18
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When ALL the voices here all say "NO, DON'T do a PB2 its pointless" then ill stop saying I think certification as a method of testing knowledge which demonstrates understanding and ability is good thing.
But no one is saying that training is pointless are they?

I think we're all pretty much in agreement that it's good to know what you're doing, but the majority don't agree that compulsory licensing would be practical or particularly helpful.
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Old 13 October 2014, 15:40   #19
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But no one is saying that training is pointless are they?

I think we're all pretty much in agreement that it's good to know what you're doing, but the majority don't agree that compulsory licensing would be practical or particularly helpful.
As any teacher/instructor will tell you only via testing (which can take many forms) can he/she know if the lessons taught have been understood and the abilities taught have been learnt.

The evidence of this is usually in the form of a certificate (in our case PB2 being the de facto) which is already practical as is done on a daily basis. The fact that a standard skill level which is accepted as a base is helpful as everyone understand what is required.
Of course people can be fools, as in anything and no one can legislate for that.
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Old 13 October 2014, 15:45   #20
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Nope not all powerboats, dinghy's 6 -20ft, Yachts, biggest 64 feet Powerboats, ribs up to 40 feet, windsurfers, swimmers, climbers, Rowers Fresh water and salt, northern and southern hemisphere both sides of the prime meridian.
the OP's question is specific to powerboat certification - the point I made earlier is certifying powerboats isn't going to solve 80% of the "perceived problem".

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...and bring up all sorts of tangents my point still stands.
and you've still no evidence it will actually make a blind bit of difference.

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When ALL the voices here all say "NO, DON'T do a PB2 its pointless" then ill stop saying I think certification as a method of testing knowledge which demonstrates understanding and ability is good thing.
I'm not sure if you meant that to sound like a shift in position. Nobody is suggesting PB2 is pointless. The issue is whether making it mandatory would be a good idea.

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Go on Poly, start advocating the avoidance of PB2
I'm generally a big fan of the PB2 course but I'm not going to suggest it is the only way to get that knowledge. eg. I don't think the RNLI use the RYA scheme so you'd be telling an Atlantic 75 helm that he had to go and sit a test; or a Pac22 helm from the Navy... or a BSAC Diveboat helm... etc People should get training and experience appropriate to the type of vessel they will use etc.

Depending how you define "powerboat" I expect any boat with an engine is included - but the handling and characteristics of a yachts and a RIB are rather different! Alternatively yachts are exempt up to a certain engine size, but is the tender with a 3HP engine on it thats only ever used for 100m in a sheltered bay? I certainly wouldn't argue that everyone with a 3HP tender should do a PB2 course - would you? Similarly I wouldn't expect someone who just did a PB2 course in a SR4 + 30HP engine would jump in a 60ft 600HP twin engine powerboat and actually be safe but thats what 'licenses' with entitlement would effectively say. A training course, attended voluntarily, should leave the participant with no doubt that if they want to do something rather different then seeking out further training would be wise.

So I've never heard anyone identify a problem which any realistic licensing/testing scheme would actually convincingly address.
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