Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
 
Old 06 January 2004, 18:54   #121
Member
 
Country: UK - England
Town: scotland
Boat name: Leviathan
Make: Phantom
Length: 8m +
Engine: GM Diesels
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,437
You're a bad boy Pete7
__________________

__________________
Jonny Fuller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06 January 2004, 18:54   #122
Member
 
Country: Greece
Town: Gloucetsreshire
Boat name: GATO DI MARE
Make: MAR.CO
Length: 9m +
Engine: Yamaha 200Vmax
MMSI: 235027678
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,339
Send a message via MSN to Manos Send a message via Yahoo to Manos Send a message via Skype™ to Manos
Pete is the pig sitting in the front of the Pacific Console (if it has now been changed??)

Going to bed working day tomorrow! Night all
__________________

Manos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06 January 2004, 18:57   #123
Member
 
Pete7's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Gosport
Boat name: April Lass
Make: Moody 31
Length: 9m +
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,850
Gentlemen,

I should point out I have not actually said anything about Falcons and if you imply i have then you will hear from Mr Garfish and his lawers, Sue Grabbit and Fleece, I promise.

However I will quote KE. "All in the best possible taste"

Pete
__________________
Pete7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06 January 2004, 20:58   #124
Member
 
Country: UK - Wales
Town: Southampton
Boat name: DynaMoHumm/ SRV/deja
Make: Avon8.4, 5.4 & 4.777
Length: 8m +
Engine: Cat3126 Yam 90 &70
MMSI: 42
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,556
Quote:
Originally posted by Manos
RW I would like to thank you for your 'very constructive' and 'highly technical' comments which incidently I beleive must come from your years of 'extenssive experience, education and hard work' on laminating issues when building, repairing and producing boats by proxy I may add.
May I ask then, if you are another 'expert' like many around the World may I ask if you have any qualifications or experience or expetise even on these matters to substantiate your comments?
Would be very interested to know!!

VERY SAD!!
Here we go Again!

I replied to almost the exact smokescren on boatmad and you well know what my answer was then, but in case your memory is as limited as your ability to be accurate then I will reiterate.

Yes I do know quite a bit about laminating, I put myself through college working in a GRP shop, building boats water tanks and TV scenery and later worked for Scott Bader. It's unpleasant work and the stuff is itchy and gets everywhere hence I have a lot of respect for good laminators

Then and now if I produce something I really do try to make it right. I am not or never was a boat builder or designer just done a fair bit of laminating, albeit 20 years ago

The lack of craftsmanship is obvious in the picture of the hull, but mostly the things that concern me are the fixings of the Longits and side strengthening Ribs. These should be straight and well held down.

The fact that they are not straight indicates a lack of craftsmanship and an out of sight out of mind mentality

The GRP (Glass Reinforced Plastic) process involves crushing a mat of chopped micro glass tubes with a roller/brush and filling and surrounding them with a resin which sets hard. This resin has a cure time which is variable with heat and temperature. So work has to be both quickish and of high quality.

This can also be done using a machine than chops the strand filament and then sparys it on mixed with resin

The resin is brittle without the Glass and likewise the Glass is only cloth without the Resin.

You have a layer of Gell coat (shiny stuff) which goes in the mould first and then the layup is attached to the Gell coat. you would put in a few layers of Layup resin and CSM before the ribbing.

These layers are called laminations and if the bonding between the layers isn't of high quality then the boat should be subject to delamination, and that's why I wouldn't buy a Falcon based on that picture as I can't see the laminator did a good job

No amount of Flo Coating will solve that problem!

I must say that if you can't see the lack of quality for yourself then you really are obtuse.

People come to this Forum for advice and guidance and to either give or gain knowledge and it's important to me that the information they are given is accurate cos there life may depend on it.

Why can't you just say yep it was a bad effort but they do it right nowadays. To continually defend that level of quality does not enhance your own or Falcon's reputation
__________________
Here it comes again, I don't stand a chance
Soul possession, Got me in a trance
Pullin' me back to you - Deja Voodoo
Rogue Wave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07 January 2004, 00:52   #125
Member
 
Country: South Africa
Town: Swellendam
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 49
hi all

re the comment about poor lay-up specification, i would really like to see the picture as i am not aware of this - to my knowledge our laminate is actually way over-engineered for CE-registration requirement (which we do have). i will gladly post more recent laminate pictures upon request.

Our factory racing program exists specifically to test laminate & support structure under real and extreme use before it is incoporated into production models. As a matter of interest on the latest winning F2 boat we have achieved durability with as little as 4 layers of glass on the outter skin - without using any carbon fibres or kevlars - note that specially woven fabric was used, and this particular laminate was developed by a local engineer.
__________________
Falcon Boats is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07 January 2004, 03:47   #126
Member
 
Cookee's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Salcombe, Devon, UK
Boat name: BananaShark
Make: BananaShark
Length: 10m +
Engine: 2xYanmar 260 diesels
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,225
Mr Falcon - page 11 of this thread about 3/4 of the way down the page - this photo was published by Manos of his boat under construction in your factory.
__________________
Cookee
Originally Posted by Zippy
When a boat looks that good who needs tubes!!!
Cookee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07 January 2004, 05:30   #127
Administrator
 
John Kennett's Avatar
 
Country: UK - England
Town: Brighton
Length: 3m +
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 6,830
Re: hi all

Quote:
Originally posted by Falcon Boats
re the comment about poor lay-up specification, i would really like to see the picture as i am not aware of this - to my knowledge our laminate is actually way over-engineered for CE-registration requirement (which we do have). i will gladly post more recent laminate pictures upon request.
I would be very interested to hear your views on the picture. Manos originally posted it here as an example of how well Falcons are built, but it has it has since been posted here and elsewhere as an example of poor workmanship.

In my opinion it doesn't take an expert to see that it is a mess and displays a startling lack of attention to detail. Is this really how you build RIBs?

From what little I have seen of Falcons the exterior finish seems to be reasonably good, and the Falcon owners here appear to be very happy with their RIBs. I would personally be happier with a boat knowing that it had been made carefully throughout, not just on the outside . . .

Whatever your boats look like under the deck, congratulations on a superb performance in the Trans Agulhas. It's unfortunate about the initial confusion over the speed, as I feel that it has been something of a distraction from the team's success -- averaging nearly 50 mph over that distance is a major achievement. Anyone who believes that it is possible to average 70mph over this distance and conditions in a 7m 150hp RIB does need a bit of a reality check though

John
__________________
John Kennett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07 January 2004, 05:37   #128
Member
 
Country: UK - Wales
Town: Southampton
Boat name: DynaMoHumm/ SRV/deja
Make: Avon8.4, 5.4 & 4.777
Length: 8m +
Engine: Cat3126 Yam 90 &70
MMSI: 42
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 6,556
Mr Falcon (Pieter)Hello,

My comments were about the quality of the laminators efforts and not his/her materials. I didn't mention your layup specification I was merely indicating to Manos that I at least knew the priciples of Lamination.

What some of us (and me in particular) are very tired of is Manos's constant banging on about Falcon boats and their Fantastic build quality and his refusal to accept that the picture shows a laminating job that isn't from the top shelf.

Cheers

Stuart
__________________
Here it comes again, I don't stand a chance
Soul possession, Got me in a trance
Pullin' me back to you - Deja Voodoo
Rogue Wave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07 January 2004, 05:51   #129
Member
 
Country: Canada
Town: Newfoundland
Length: no boat
Join Date: May 2000
Posts: 2,097
Having followed the various Falcon build quality discussions with interest I think its fair to say we await Falcon Boats response to he photo with great interest! Perhaps you could post a photo of a current build Falcon for comparison purposes?
__________________
Alan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07 January 2004, 06:14   #130
Member
 
Country: Greece
Town: Gloucetsreshire
Boat name: GATO DI MARE
Make: MAR.CO
Length: 9m +
Engine: Yamaha 200Vmax
MMSI: 235027678
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,339
Send a message via MSN to Manos Send a message via Yahoo to Manos Send a message via Skype™ to Manos
OK I can see your point JK Wave JF and all

So will have to wait and see. However, all said and done my boat as well as Chris' and another Manos' in Greece who has a 640SR have not developed any problems so far.

I have put my boat through the paces doing 90 miles going from Cape Sounion to Santorini in force 5 in about 4hrs and 15 mins and nothing happened on the way there or on the way back.

As I am not an expert on laminating issues I just think that it makes no difference how the hull looks like inside provided is well buit and is strong! And it looks strong to me.

To lighten up a bit, here are some photos from the transagulhas race 2003-2004 received by XMARINE

Hope you enjoy them
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	great1.jpg
Views:	216
Size:	11.5 KB
ID:	3848  
__________________

Manos is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 18:05.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.