Best Radar with large screen dash mount for open Rib

Have new 9mt on order curious to see other poeples viewpoints on the best system for a open Rib. I would like to have a Large full colour screen with possibilty of chart overlay etc.

Have a very large electronics consul so space is endless.

Menu systmes and ease of use most important

previous Radar systems from raymarine C21 and furuno GD180 plotter
Cost not sensitive

Look forward to the comments :)

What ever you get make sure the radome is mounted high up - microwaves don't do the old grey matter any good!!! Have also seen some people using a tilting mount so that the radar is still level when on the plane.

A few of my mates are using Raymarine stuff - very good and actually British!!!

http://www.raymarine.com/raymarine/

They link into almost everything so you can have all sorts of overlays etc.

Have a look at the Furuno Navnet range, M1833, 10.4" Display, Radar overlay on chart, can also have sounder, weather fax/navtex, CCTV display to monitor engine space and lots more.....tea maker etc. Mark II version out in the new year if you can wait that long.

Cheers
Mark

Agree with Codprawn on Raymarine stuff.
However, this thing about getting your brains fried?
Not so sure. Someone here said the microwaves were very weak and have no effect at all.
If they were dangerous, wouldnt the health police have banned them by now or at least would we not have read about someone who had been damaged in the papers/on thetele/over the internet?

Agree with Brian, one of the yachting magazines ran some serious test a few years back. Conclusion was that the radiation from a small radar mast 1 metre away was less than that of a mobile phone next to your ear.

Pete

I often think about the radar beams when on a flybridge cruiser. Your head is almost exactly in line with the beam when helming from up top!
If there was really that much of a problem I do not think that boat builder would be allowed to fit them there as I would have thought there would some Euro directive to stop it.
I do not think that my brain has been "microwaved" I hope!!!!

Thank you for the constructive responses. especially the issue of Microwave
energy. Our radome will be mounted at a sufficient height to be out of the line of sight to the crew on board even whilst standing up.Also mounted on the central A frame it negates the rear squat effect when cruising to some degree.On my Rib I will be fortunate to have two A frames one aft and one above consul Previous sets have included the best from Raymarine in the form of the C120 although a very good set some menu functions which are essential can be tedious. I was interested to see the various sets you Ribsters are using right now , and was looking for more feedback before i make a very expensive mistake.If you wanted to see this twin A frame set up on one of our clients boats view www.parkerribs.com and go to Baltic 7.5 here the set up can be seen in action.

My shortlist of sets are as follows Raymarine and Furuno although if there are others I should consider please advise.

Whilst on the subject of Radars and I wonder also what individuals views are on DSC/VHfs my last set on Platypus was a Icom 601 which was a very good unit with no problems . Any thoughts on the VHF market too ?

thanking you all

David :hi:

Raymarine c series C120 combined unit is IMHO the best but expensive .

SS

Brian,
You raise an interesting point about fried brains. The previous owner of 'LA Bamba' had a JRC radar fitted and used it as neccessary. He was a retired Pilot from BA and appeared to have a good knowlege of radar. He said the effect to the brain was the same as a mobile phone. However the manual clearly states not to use the equipment unless you are more than 'La Bamba' hull length away!! We have not used the radar as we are not be sure it is safe.

The Furuno 10.4" radar/plotter/sounder in the navnet series is a lovely unit. Its also more of a commercial hard wearing design IMHO and is thus more suitable for a RIB or similar.

Its simple to use and easy to read although this does come with a price tag!

Cheers

Hi there ,

Thank you for the reply, can I ask what exactly makes it a more robust commercial set. Is it the casing , waterproofing etc. and finally how much is this set.

thanking you

I just can't believe the people who liken boat radar systems to mobile phones - of course the frequencies are similar but what about POWER - a few milliwatts for a phone - RADAR has peak power of about 1.5kw - yes that's right - just like a microwave oven - same technology - a magnetron and waveguide - would YOU open the door of your microwave and use it - I wouldn't!!!

Microwave ovens came about because RAF pilots noticed their sandwiches getting hot in the lockers near the Radomes.

Of course with the inverse square law the power drops off exponetialy with distance but even so - I certainly wouldn't risk it.

There are plenty of documented cases of Yank Police getting testicular cancer from their radar guns - keeping them switched on in their laps whilst waiting for speeding motorists!!!

I just can't believe the people who liken boat radar systems to mobile phones

Why not, the yachtie magazine was trying to put things into perspective for those of us that don't have an hons degree in Physics.

Of course with the inverse square law the power drops off exponetialy with distance yes this was their point, mobile touching your ear or radar 1 metre away.

I certainly wouldn't risk it oh I would, caught out in fog or rain especially at night time I would have no hessitation in turning the radar on. Bit of an over kill for a jolly around the Solent on a sunny day, but having been caught in fog on a number of occasions its very easy to become disorientated. The problem with radar is interpriting what you are looking at, at that takes practise.

Pete

Hi

The Furuno radar isnt on my boat but is fitted to i commercial boat that i sometimes work aboard.

Price wise, i heard talk of a couple of 'k' although dont quote me as it was fitted with a number of other items so im not sure of the exact cost. All i know is that it was quite pricey!

Id give a dealer a call and check it out...

As for quality, its in a wheel house so hasnt been subject to water but the whole unit seems very chunky and well made compared to its competitiors. I just personally feel that it comes across as being a very well made, heavy duty set that is built for work and will take some punishment - and of course it does all three essentials in one with overlay!! Echo/plotter/radar which saves valuable space!

Do a search, there was a thread a while back which compared Furuno and Ray kit.

Cheers

http://www.rib.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4278&page=1&pp=10&highlight=furuno

David

why not go for the Raymarine C120 . The same unit which you so enjoyed operating during our sea voyage to Poland. Also the 750 Baltic which you so refered to is also fitted with the C120. Why change to something different, it is a very good system and you know how it works :)

Liked the big screen in your Cabin RIB Andre. Was that Raymarine?

Us

Codprawn
Go here:
http://www.raymarine.com/raymarine/ProductResource.asp?site=1&section=2&page=76&product_id=134&ResourceID=101

It definately says power output is in low watts not KW.

Sorry to disagree but I read it as 2KW peak output power. Power consumption is low watts.

:cool:

Brian

Brian,
I believe the output power is 2KW. However I found this on the site.
Question
---- 08/02/2001 11:22 PM ---------------------------------------------
Please discuss the biological radiation hazard of a generic marine radar. I see a lot of questions on my listserv on this subject and most of the answers offerred are somewhat surreal and appear totally overly cautious. If possible I would like a technical answer so that I could pass your reply to my shipmates with some credibility.

Answer
At 08/03/2001 12:12 PM we wrote - Due to the relatively low power of leisure radar, concerns over harmful transmissions are generally not considered to be a problem as long as people are a few feet from the scanner unit (about 3 feet) and the scanner is positioned above eye level.

The following is an excerpt from our Radar handbooks discussing Radar safety.

JCW which Brian??? :]

Brian ;) ;)

ashbypower,
I was replying to Brian :V ( I mostly use the Ribnet alias , apologies for any confusion)

I guessed so but I did'nt wish to appear rude by not answering

;) ;)

Brian (AP)

Brian,
I believe the output power is 2KW. However I found this on the site.

Answer
At 08/03/2001 12:12 PM we wrote - Due to the relatively low power of leisure radar, concerns over harmful transmissions are generally not considered to be a problem as long as people are a few feet from the scanner unit (about 3 feet) and the scanner is positioned above eye level.

The following is an excerpt from our Radar handbooks discussing Radar safety.

The crucial part is " above eye level" - the point I am trying to make is that the Radome must be above head height - not only for safety but also for increased range.

Some Ribs I have seen do not fulfill such criteria and to me Radar mounted so low is a waste of time and dangerous(unless you remember to crouch down low)!!!

Of course I agree that Radar is a huge safety aid - would definitely fit it to a cabin type RIB or a commercial one with a high Radar arch!!!

oh I would, caught out in fog or rain especially at night time I would have no hessitation in turning the radar on. Bit of an over kill for a jolly around the Solent on a sunny day, but having been caught in fog on a number of occasions its very easy to become disorientated. The problem with radar is interpriting what you are looking at, at that takes practise.

Pete

Couldn't agree more - just remember to duck if it's down low............

It is strange to think that RADAR hasn't really advanced that much since the magnetron was invented during the war - alright the displays are better and much smaller but power/range etc are still the same - also the skill required hasn't really changed that much!!! Electronics can only do so much.

I seem to remember my Raymarine manual was particularly concerned about damage to eye tissue rather than brain tissue.

Personally can't afford to lose another brain cell - down to single figures now!!!

Well gentlemen ,

thank you all for the information........I have decided to go for the Raymarine C120 as per our Demo cabin Rib.

To alleviate all fears about killing the grey matter The radome will be mounted high on the second A frame Mid Ship to allow for the stability and of course range.

For those who are curious to look at the A frame set up take a look at our web site www.parkerribs.com and view the Baltic 750

Any views on this twin A frame set up are also welcomed. :cool:

Any views on this twin A frame set up are also welcomed. :cool:

You could always get a couple of sails!!

David B
Any chance of getting a slightly higher A-frame. It still looks a bit low to me if the brain fryers are to be believed.

Everyone else as well as David B.
I still maintain there isnt a problem. No expert has come on here to tell us that we are going to be death-rayed. The HSE police are quiet on the subject. Nobody has posted any actual anecdotal evidence of damage to humanoids.

I reckon we are OK.

Thank you Brian for your input. The problem we would have in going higher is really a proportional one and that of equal weight distrubution, however I have today discussed with our electronics guys in Chatham and this is for sure a mixed debate. Their offcial viewpoint is Do not stand in front of the transmission from the radome for a indefinate period of time. Given the type of craft I have and its uses I will helm this from the seating posistion as opposed to standing up therefore absolutely plenty of height even at the helm in the standing up I am below the Radome.

Unlike the smaller Ribs i intend to "drive " in the seated posistion 90% of the time especially for extended voyages. The need to stand is not the same as for example in "platypus " my old 6.3 mt demo craft. I guess there will always be those who advocate and those who do not. At the end of the day its down to common sense.I think our central A frame system is the best compromise i have seen on a open 9mt Rib though. =) =)

David B

David B
Any chance of getting a slightly higher A-frame. It still looks a bit low to me if the brain fryers are to be believed.

Everyone else as well as David B.
I still maintain there isnt a problem. No expert has come on here to tell us that we are going to be death-rayed. The HSE police are quiet on the subject. Nobody has posted any actual anecdotal evidence of damage to humanoids.

I reckon we are OK.

Obviously the risk IS small but not to be ignored all together!!!

As to evidence there is plenty if you know where to look and sort out the actual science from the hype from the luddites!!!

From the HSE

"Sensible precautions

If radar equipment is to be worked on under power in port, sensible precautions would include ensuring that:

no one is close to the scanner, ie within a few metres,
the scanner is rotating or if the work requires the scanner to be stationary, that it is directed to unoccupied areas, eg out to sea,
no one looks directly into the emission side of a slotted wave guide (open box type) scanner,
no one is able to position themselves between the output horn of the transmitter and the reflector of larger scanners,
the risk of being hit by a rotating scanner is not overlooked if work close to the installation is necessary. "


"Microwaves (RF energy at radar frequencies) can be hazardous if the intensity is sufficiently high. Microwaves are absorbed by the water in living tissue and their energy is converted to heat that may easily damage some organs, particularly the eyes, which may develop cataracts. For safety, always avoid looking directly into a scanner whether the radar is transmitting or not. It is well known that microwaves will interfere with cardiac pacemakers and it is common place to see the warning signs in public areas where microwave ovens are in use.

It has also been shown that long-term exposure to low levels of microwave radiation can induce a variety of physiological effects in small laboratory animals. The importance of these effects and their relevance to humans are not yet fully understood. Again for safety reasons, you should avoid long-term exposure and radar units should be operated only when needed for navigation or safety. When the radar is not needed, it should either be in standby mode (not transmitting) or turned off.

Obviously, the radiation levels associated with marine radar units will vary according to the particular make and model. A radar unit of three kilowatts up to approximately 0.5 watts per centimeter squared, operating in the X-band at 3-1/2 feet from and at the same height as the scanner, can be encountered. OSHA has determined that the recommended maximum safe level of exposure to microwaves is 0.2 milliwatts per centimeter squared. The average intensity can be as high as 0.8 (milliwatts per centimeter squared) when the scanner is stationary. At a distance of 7 to 10 feet from the scanner, the average intensity drops to safe levels (i.e. below 0.2 mW/cm2).

At points above or below the scanner's horizontal plane, the radiation level is lower than that measured at a corresponding point on that plane. However, it must be noted that the average radar has a rather large vertical beam width (20 to 25 degrees) and microwave radiation is beamed about 10 to 12 degrees above and below the horizontal plane. At 5 feet from the scanner and 1-1/2 foot below the scanner, the average intensity can still be in excess of the OSHA safety limit."

Hello Mr Cod Prawn ,

What a post........you must have a degree in Microwave energy :D
Either way thank you for your post. I guess I must take a view though on the safety aspect re the navigational Gain and aid the set will afford to myself during the extended cruisies we do.

I trust you saw the Radar Arch set up we have and frankly there is little else one can do to take further preventative measures on a RIb .The points uyou have raised are all relative and one should as stated exercise caution when using this typeof equipment. At the end of the day its down to common sense.

I guess I touched on a emotive subject by placing this post , however i am glad to have got the feedback on the subject

One thing though I have not had much response on the Best Radar with a large screen for a open 9mt Rib. I was rather hoping there might be more of you out there who had use of Radar sets and their various functionalitys.

Hang in there Mr Cod prawn

Hello Mr Cod Prawn ,

What a post........you must have a degree in Microwave energy :D
Either way thank you for your post. I guess I must take a view though on the safety aspect re the navigational Gain and aid the set will afford to myself during the extended cruisies we do.



Hang in there Mr Cod prawn

Not far off...... particle physics to be exact.

Total waste of time though - not much call for it and the wages are shit!!!

Personally I am not a lover of bits of paper - the people getting degrees these days!

That's what I love about the computer industry - bits of paper don't mean much - it is what you can DO that counts!!!

Not far off...... particle physics to be exact.

Total waste of time though - not much call for it and the wages are shit!!!

Personally I am not a lover of bits of paper - the people getting degrees these days!

That's what I love about the computer industry - bits of paper don't mean much - it is what you can DO that counts!!!


F**K me I am buggered then as I can not do a lot :D

I would FAR rather mess around with RIBs all the time!!!

At points above or below the scanner's horizontal plane, the radiation level is lower than that measured at a corresponding point on that plane. However, it must be noted that the average radar has a rather large vertical beam width (20 to 25 degrees) and microwave radiation is beamed about 10 to 12 degrees above and below the horizontal plane. At 5 feet from the scanner and 1-1/2 foot below the scanner, the average intensity can still be in excess of the OSHA safety limit." In that case mounting it above the console so you're right underneath it looks like a good plan!

John

In that case mounting it above the console so you're right underneath it looks like a good plan!

John

Or maybe strapping it to your head????????????????

If it was on my head it would be fine -- would probably have quite an impressive range too. Wouldn't work so well for Rogue Wave though! =)

John

In that case mounting it above the console so you're right underneath it looks like a good plan!

John

John,

What is your opinion of our Baltic set up then. After much research we concluded this to be the best option on a small craft.

As you know I am also based with the RNLI at Sheerness and on our all weather lifeboat the Trent class the open radome is only just out of hands reach above our heads . The same goes for the baltic Rib.

:D

David B

It is strange to think that RADAR hasn't really advanced that much since the magnetron was invented during the war - alright the displays are better and much smaller but power/range etc are still the same - also the skill required hasn't really changed that much!!! Electronics can only do so much.

Yeah, it's a shame about that. If only the earth were flat we would be able to see much further with our radars. There must be a way to see over the horizon?

Yeah, it's a shame about that. If only the earth were flat we would be able to see much further with our radars. There must be a way to see over the horizon?


I take it that is a tongue in cheek comment about "over the horizon" radar? Funnily enough during the early Radar days the biggest problem WAS "over the horizon" - they had to work very hard to cut out confusing returns from objects too far away!

Nowadays all the research is back onto "over the horizon" stuff!

OK then, with the few brain cells I have left, what about a comment from someone on "visibility".
We have had lots of postings in the past about the effectiveness of RADAR reflectors.
My own experience, with my RADAR, is that these reflectors are all pretty hopeless at picking up small boats like RIBs. I usually cant "see" the other boats in my little flotilla, either at all or at best, not very well.
My question is, are they really useless or is it my kit/ability to read the screen properly. I have always assumed that big ships, helicopters and SAR craft, the military etc. are fitted with much better kit/properly trained people and can indeed "see" us. Can any "Mike Uniform" type or SAR guy or Naval person comment on this? Conspicuous silence when this question has been asked before.

I was advised to not to bother carrying a bought radar reflector
Quote "cause they are crap" I won't say who quoted it to me just in case
but to use a home made one from a black bin liner fill of scrunched up tin foil.

Sounds like a good idea but hope I never have to find out if it works

I sat in on a Radar reflector test a few years ago - the findings were that it has a lot to do with the way the reflector is mounted - they DO help but not much - obviously the higher above the water the better - bit different on a yachts mast compared to a RIB.

One thing that was noticed in the test was that some boats without reflectors returned bigger returns than other boats with them - so many factors to take into account.

Remember a RIB is probably the worst thing you could have for being picked up on RADAR - low in the water - made of absorbant materials etc. Which is why drug runners love them!!!

The best bet for a RIB would be an active system - possibly something like the following

http://www.sea-me.co.uk/index.html

It re transmits the radar signal and also tells you when it has had a paint(signal)which is quite usefull.

Tests on radar reflectors can often be misleading - often the angle is very crucila - a reflector that gives a huge return on certain occasions can be all but invisible on others - bit like shining a laser pointer at someone.

This test looks ok but they all seem to favour yachts - a RIB is a bit different!!!

http://www.ussailing.org/safety/Studies/radar_reflector_test.htm#Davis%20Echomaster%20and% 20Emergency

http://www.powerandmotoryacht.com/electronics/0502electronics/index1.html

Just spotted this - the Cyclops is also worth a mention - not so good in many tests because of it being mounted on a yacht - they don't like to be heeled but could well be ideal on a RIB - apparently Mr Priddy uses one!!!

They look really cool as well.

http://www.oceannavigator.com/site/csrv/content.asp?id=671

This article explains things really well.