Pro's & Con's of fixed vs handheld dfc/vhf radio's

I am booked onto my operators course in early October thanks to all the great advice gleaned from the members of this site. My next question is which radio to choose? Everybody advices obtaining a dfc/vhf but do I go handheld for added security and extended use or a radio fixed to my consule? Also any guidance as to which models to look at? I know there is a radio manufacturer represented on this site, he always talks sense and so I am initially drawn to that product range.

Any thoughts and guidance most welcome.

If you can, I would go for one of each. The fixed set will have a greater range than the handheld as you can mount a full size aerial on the a-frame but for safety it is wise to have a handheld too as a back up. My other half wears his handheld round his neck so that if the worst happened and he/we ended up in the water, he can get help without having to try to get back into the boat (which could be on fire or overturned...).

HTH :hi:

If budget doesn't allow both straightaway, maybe start with a handheld. If your cruising tends to be close to harbours, the range will probably be fine.

I've been debating this myself. Handheld or fixed? The things I've come up with so far are:

Handheld
- easier to take home at the end of the day
- less console space taken up
- cheaper?
- use it anywhere on the boat
- limited battery life
- No additional wiring needed

Fixed
- longer range
- longer battery life
- not so easy to take home
- takes up console space
- more pricey?

So I'm no where nearer to a decision either! Some points to consider though.

Tim

I think that when you weigh up all the pros and cons the real difference is that fixed gives you that little bit more range than handheld.

The real question is do you really want DSC? Why not buy a good (cheap) VHF that will give you 5 years of reliable service while DSC set get cheaper and more useful :eek:
Des

....... My other half wears his handheld round his neck so that if the worst happened and he/we ended up in the water, he can get help without having to try to get back into the boat............

Hi Louise
Have you any experience of the range you get with a hand held at sea level, not trying to start an argument just curious :eh:

Des

Hi Des - can't remember off hand. Will get Richard to post when he gets home - he usually has a better memory for these things than I do! :rolleyes:

Don’t know if this helps... On an RYA sailing course we were give a rule of thumb that a fixed mount vhf on low power (1W) would give an effective range of 1 nm where as on high power (25 W), 15+ nm, handhelds are normally 5W on maximum power.

Don’t forget the fixed aerial on yacht is at the top of the mast and this will increase the range. So I do not expect the handhelds effective range to be much better than a fixed one on low power. I have only experienced handheld to handheld range on RIBS on RYA courses, they worked OK but we were with in easy sight of each – maybe 1km apart.

Hi qcamel,

I had a Simrad RD68 fixed DSC radio on my rib, also bought a handheld ICOM M1V DSC radio. The Simrad used to give me grief and shortly before I sold my Rib the screen was starting to go and if you check another Forum you will find quite a few other members have had problems with their Simrads RD68's and getting no usefull advice backup from Simrad themselves.

Found the relevant links for you:
www.rib.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5658&highlight=RD68

www.rib.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4747&highlight=RD68

The ICOM M1V I have is excelent, although I do not know what range it has as yet, have been round IOW and still retained coverage althought that is the extent I have relied on it. The battery lasts a long time and it is easy to use.

Hopefully this will be of some use to you. Good luck :cool:

Both are useful and effective. Handhelds will only transmit at a maximum of 5 watt whereas a fixed set will transmit at 25 watt, which will give you greater range. Look at what purpose you are going to use the VHF. If you are going to doing alot of cruising then a fixed set, however if you are to do your boating where you are in close proximity of other vessells then a handheld should suffice. If you go for the fixed set then please bear in mind the higher the arial the better the signal will be and also try and buy a handhled as a backup as radios do fail.

With regards to DSC as of next year the coastguard will not monitor channell 16 on their headsets but will instead have it coming through a speaker in the ops room, therefore the chances of them picking up a distress call will be reduced. In 2007 channell 16 will be obsolete so thereforte I would say go for a DSC unit Silva do a nice one for about £200-00.

Hope this is of use to you

Simon

Thats great guys, thanks for the advice and help. The dealer was pointing me towards the Simrad range, so very pleased I read the posts... Looks like ICOM are about to get some of my folding money...

Ollie

....My other half wears his handheld round his neck so that if the worst happened and he/we ended up in the water, he can get help without having to try to get back into the boat ............


Been thinking about this and I am concerned because I am not sure how well it would work.

I was told on my radio course that VHF is, in essence, ‘line of sight’ radio (I know that is simplifying it but bear with me) so horizon through 180 degrees to horizon in all directions.

You are most likely to fall out of a boat on a windy / wavy day. At sea level your ear is, say, 350 mm about the surface of the water.

With 1mtr waves you are (most of the time) 500 to 600 mm below the horizon.

How far will a hand held reach in these conditions? Des

of next year the coastguard will not monitor channell 16 on their headsets but will instead have it coming through a speaker in the ops room, therefore the chances of them picking up a distress call will be reduced.

They actually announced that as of Sept 2003 they would be going to speaker watch as and when they felt circumstances warranted it, so most coastguard stations are already on speaker watch for a significant proportion of the time. The chances of them not picking up a call are slim, as they record the channel for playback if it didn't come through the speaker clearly

Brendan thanks for the input but think that you are a little behind. In 2003 it was not mandatory for shipping to keep a listening watch on channel 16, whereas the coastguard did. In 2005/6 probably more 2006 the coastguard will not keep a listening watch on 16, but will have it through a speaker. What good is a recording of the channel after the event has happened.

Simon

Brendan thanks for the input but think that you are a little behind. In 2003 it was not mandatory for shipping to keep a listening watch on channel 16, whereas the coastguard did. In 2005/6 probably more 2006 the coastguard will not keep a listening watch on 16, but will have it through a speaker. What good is a recording of the channel after the event has happened.

Simon

I'm not sure which bit you didn't understand, but I found the original coastguard press release, which explains exactly what I posted in more detail. As I said, as of Sept 2003, the coastguard dropped the requirement to keep a dedicated headphone watch, and can put it on speaker - not 2006. The recording is in case no one gets the details when it comes through on speaker. They can replay it instantly.

http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/mcga-dops_pr_newsroom-press-releases-release.htm?mcga_news_id=2334&month=9&year=2003Â*

Brendan. Please look at the GMDSS leaflet produced by the MCA. Hope this clears up this point http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/gmdss.pdf

I dunno if you are buying a handheld or a portable if you do buy a handheld then fit a cigarette lighter socket and ariel to your boat cos the horizon thing that scary des mentioned is correct,

I've seen that document before, but it is out of date, or simply misleading, as though they will go to speaker watch entirely in 2005, they are already doing it now. Your post stated: "With regards to DSC as of next year the coastguard will not monitor channell 16 on their headsets but will instead have it coming through a speaker in the ops room, therefore the chances of them picking up a distress call will be reduced"

As the coastguard press release I posted says, they brought that forward, and are now doing speaker monitoring instead of headset monitoring, when ever it suits them, as of Sept 2003.

Seems to be a tad of confusion here guys.
Lets see if the resident radio man can help!!!!

2003 was the date for commercial shipping to stop a dedicated ch 16 watch as they all had to have DSC fitted by law.

Last Sept the MCA started a wind down of the dedicated headset watch in its control rooms.
This was down to the man or lady in charge and the amount of radio traffic they have.

Next year all control rooms will change to a loud speaker watch.

Ch16 will never be obsolete it role is just going to change.
No longer a calling channel but for the use for SAR work and co-ordination.

This is from the horses mouth not the press release or website.
Less chance of confusion and interprtation that way.
All info from head radio man at MCA and head man in maritime dept. at Ofcom
(both good mates!)

Place it my job to know all this.

Its scary the amount of SRC (Short Range Cert) instructors who don't know all the right facts yet.
By the way that is not a dig at any one here just from some of the daft questions I get asked by some of them!!

My recomendation is that if your only boating in the UK you would be ok with non DSC.
If you considering going further a field then DSC is a must now.

For a suggestion on what to fit I would always have both.
Belt and braces and all that.
I always carry a hand held with me, sad I guess.

Southampton Boat Show is a good place to find a bargin come and see us too.

Radio's are getting cheaper, hell we have a waterproof hand held for less than £150 and a new DSC set for under £300.
All waterproof with 3 year warranty!!
"cheap as chips!" :D

Regards

All waterproof with 3 year warranty!!
:D

Regards

Don't start me off on that one!

Seems to be a tad of confusion here guys.


Jon, no confusion here. Just stating facts, and have hammered these issues out several times with Mike Martin.

On the other hand, while you are here.... :p I have a IC-M1 Euro V. It took a bit of a knock, and the squelch/volume control got bent. All works fine, but the knurled sqelch knob no longer does anything, which is irritating. If I send it in, how long for a fix, and what sort of estimated cost?

Cheers
Brendan

Hi there, Superradioman. Perhaps you could answer the question from Scary Des - how well would a handheld work from absolute sea level? We figure we'd rather have it, on the off chance that it might work or you might be able to, say, climb onto the upturned hull and use it. What do you think? Ta. :hi:

The standard Icom labour charge is 55 pounds an hour and the minimum charge seems to be 1 hour. So far my radios have been with Icom for more than 2 months'

Jon, no confusion here. Just stating facts, and have hammered these issues out several times with Mike Martin.

On the other hand, while you are here.... :p I have a IC-M1 Euro V. It took a bit of a knock, and the squelch/volume control got bent. All works fine, but the knurled sqelch knob no longer does anything, which is irritating. If I send it in, how long for a fix, and what sort of estimated cost?

Cheers
Brendan

I know you have Brendon have read the posts :D
But there is a lot of confusion out there and lots who think they know the facts when they don't.
Again not aimed at any one here.

Depends send it marked for me, then a couple of days.

If not marked for me will end up in the system and be a couple of weeks.
Cost will depend on if its needs a new volume control or just at bit of bending.

Will just clarify, for 3 year warranty "YOU" the end user must fill in the card and send it backor it will just be 1 year.
We do pride ourselves on our service but you can't please all of the people all the time.

Rouge if you coming to Southampton Boat Show please come and find me.
Think we need to have a chat, a beer or 3 (on me) and make you happy again.
Am there all the time.
You feel let down and I want to put that right and chat through it all with you.

Regards

Depends send it marked for me, then a couple of days



Cheers! Will wait till a quiet time in boating season, then let you know it's coming

Brendan

The standard Icom labour charge is 55 pounds an hour and the minimum charge seems to be 1 hour. So far my radios have been with Icom for more than 2 months'

Yes it is and that is the same for most electronic companies.
We have tried to contact you for most of that to get payment.
E-mails sent, PM's sent, messages left on your moblie.

No reply.

As I said before your radio's have been ready since 2 weeks after we had them!
They will not leave to building until the invoice is settled.
Standard Working Parctice for most companies

Sorry to do this in public but you don't answer our contact attempts.
This is making us look bad when that not the full facts.
I feel you are upset with us but this is not all our doing.
We have tried and tried to contact you.
You are a valued customer and we don't want for you to feel let down but you need to respond to get this sorted.

Once again sorry to the rest of you.

Regards

.

Will just clarify, for 3 year warranty "YOU" the end user must fill in the card and send it backor it will just be 1 year.
We do pride ourselves on our service but you can't please all of the people all the time.

Rouge if you coming to Southampton Boat Show please come and find me.
Think we need to have a chat, a beer or 3 (on me) and make you happy again.
Am there all the time.
You feel let down and I want to put that right and chat through it all with you.

Regards

Jon,

firstly I'd be delighted to meet with you again as I enjoy your sense of Humour and you don't need to buy all the drinks. My beef is with Icom and not you as a person

I don't feel let down by Icom I've been let down by em and yes I am getting bitter and twisted about it. Sending me a pro forma for the price we agreed so long ago in our phone converstaion would be a good start to the road to rectifying the situation .

I am intrigued that the radios were ready two weeks after they were handed over to you....are you sure?

Other than the PM's we exchanged on the 10/6/04 I have not recieved any PM's (is there a problem with the system JK?) no emails or tele messages either.

This situation is regrettable all in all it's a shame the Icom products werent reliable

how well would a handheld work from absolute sea level?

A good handheld, about 5 miles. A fixed set at the same level, about 25 miles
From memory, but can probably find the site that gave this info. As already stated, yachts fare far better, as their aerials are on top of a mast, and height equals distance where radio comms are concerned

From experience, just holding the handheld above your head (if you have a mike attached) can give quite an extra distance. I've even been known to clamber on top of the seat, to gain an extra few feet, and it works, but not recommended.

Hi,

If you own a boat with a console and are going to keep it for a while I would definitely reccomend purchasing and fitting a fixed VHF system. 25 Watts as opposed to 1 or 2 watts will always make sense ...especially if you ever need to use the radio in an emergency!!

I'd agree with the rest of the gang to also purchase if or when your budget allows a hand held and an aquapac for emergencies and back up.

Best wishes and happy shopping !!

Stuart

Hi,
. 25 Watts as opposed to 1 or 2 watts will always make sense

Stuart
should be 25 as opposed to 5 surely!

Hand helds normally put out 5, unless using a channel where low wattage kicks in, or you manually select it

Sorry about that !! Don't know where the "." came from !!!!!! :p

Twenty five watts for fixed versus five!! watts hand held (nominally !!!)

Our hand helds also have a 1 watt feature which is generally what we use boat to boat on "certain" boats !!

Must get into civvy mind frame !!!

Thanks for the correction !!!

Stuart

Sorry about that !! Don't know where the "." came from !!!!!! :p



Not worried about the "."

Most people can surely work out that fixed is 25W. What concerned me is that you thought handhelds worked at 1-2W? Yes, as you say, handhelds work at 1W at times, but either you have to select a channel where that kicks in automatically, or select it yourself. The rest of the time it's typically 5W.

Anyway, I'm with you on having a fixed set with hand held for backup, but a hand held is far better than none at all. The next issue is taking the exam, and understanding these issues?

Yeah, I know the handheld has a much lower range but I was picking up on Scary Des's thoughts - if the worst should happen and we end up in the water instead of in the boat, just how much range would we have then? Would we still get about 5 miles or would this be reduced, what with the radio being held next to a face which is bobbing around on the surface of the sea, rather than 1.5 - 2 metres above sea level? Anyone know for sure what the answer is? :)

Realistically, in those conditions, range is going to be dependent on the quality of the radio you have, and sea conditions, and will be 2 to 4 miles max. My handheld has an attached speaker mike, which means I can hold the radio up at arms length, and use the speaker mike to talk and listen, but even that won't make a huge difference.

That's about what we thought. We figured having the radio would be better than not! So Richard'll carry on wearing it round his neck as back up to the fixed set. Cheers. :hi:

................. and sea conditions, and will be 2 to 4 miles max. .............

I don’t really get that, if VHF is ‘line of sight’ radio, how can it work beyond what you can see, remember I am talking about rough conditions with 1mtr waves and you are in the water. :V Des

as I said to Louise. 2 - 4 mile MAX! and it depends on sea conditions! If you are in rough conditions, you'd be well advised to make the most of the time you are on top of the waves, not down in the trough

A couple of other things worth pointing out. From practical experience, handhelds transmit better than they receive - so even if you are not getting a response, your transmission may be getting through. Coastguard radio aerials are usually up high and are very sensitive, so line of sight is not water level, but up to the top of cliffs etc. and sensitive enough to pick up weak transmissions. You might not get good line of sight to another boat in the area, but coastguard may still be able to pick you up if you are near one of their aerials. A lot of factors that can make things work, or not. Personally, I have a set of mini flares inside my life jacket to complement the handheld should I go overboard.

So in the case of over board along the coast a Mobile phone may be better than a hand held VHF?
It dose not knead line of sight!
Nick

So in the case of over board along the coast a Mobile phone may be better than a hand held VHF?
It dose not knead line of sight!
Nick

We each carry one of those, too - around our necks in Aquapacs. :)

Mobile phones need line of sight as much as VHF radios, though it's not always obvious - no reception at all on mine while out walking on Sunday in a valley in Wilts, even though only 2 miles away from the mast

There are also huge areas where there is no mobile reception along the coast(St Albans head area springs to mind on the south coast). Still handy as a backup, but I wouldn't depend on it.

seems like footstarps are the best way of ensuring good coms

Rich and Lousie,

I hope you don't fall over board!

With all that weight round your necks you'll never be seen again! ;)

:D :D :D (to Stu & Andy)

To Stu - re. footstraps: Got them too. :D And flares, and spare lifejackets, and throwing line, and MOB ladder (when we remember it's there :rolleyes: ) and fire extinguishers and enough other stuff to sink the boat!!!

Have you got a Fkkn big knife?

as I said to Louise. 2 - 4 mile MAX! and it depends on sea conditions! If you are in rough conditions, you'd be well advised to make the most of the time you are on top of the waves, not down in the trough



Yes I know you said 2 to 4 miles max but I’m still not convinced, my reasoning is that in waves 75% of the time you are either in the trough or going up or down one of the sides, great in Atlantic rollers but in the ‘Solent chop’ where the wave frequency is 12’ I think you would be lucky to get ½ a mile. It would be an interesting thing to test, anyone interested? :D Des

Yes, have done it, which is why I can give figures. We were bored one day and had a similar conversation, so went and tried it. Went in water in dry suit, and another boat with a fixed set set off. Sea conditions were about 1' swell and got good comms at 3 miles, and understandable with repetition at 4 miles (they could hear me, I couldn't hear them, but the boat standing by me with a fixed set relayed that I was being received or I'd have given up at that point)

If you want to try it in rougher conditions I'm up for it :]

I'll try it out the next time I am on the boat without customers. cos I think you are right Des. where are the masts in the Solent other than at Lee.

Although all the books say VHF is line of sight this is one of those rule of thumbs things.

In practice its tends to be line of sight + a 1/3.

Radio signal theory is not a exact art, so many factors can effect you signal path.

But we suggest as a guide and only a guide:-
for a 5w hand held 7-10 miles,
for a 25w fixed 25-30 miles,

Some have suggested an external antenna on an hand held to in prove range.
Things to consider here is cable loss and conector loss which you WILL get.

On a rib this will not be a major issue as no real huge runs of coax but a yacht up the mast you will.

Again as a rule of thumb and not an exact thing, you will get 1db loss for every connector/adaptor and 1db loss for every 10m of RG58 coax.
This is based on good quality conectors and coax.
Cheep stuff will give you even more loss.
If you get 3db loss you have halved your power output.

So 5w can very quickly become 2.5w or less.

This will mean your RX will be much improved but a minor change on your TX range.

Hope that helps a bit.

Regards

Yes, have done it, which is why I can give figures. We were bored one day and had a similar conversation, so went and tried it. Went in water in dry suit, and another boat with a fixed set set off. Sea conditions were about 1' swell and got good comms at 3 miles, and understandable with repetition at 4 miles (they could hear me, I couldn't hear them, but the boat standing by me with a fixed set relayed that I was being received or I'd have given up at that point)

If you want to try it in rougher conditions I'm up for it :]


Interesting just what I had in mind :] , was the swell 1’ or 1mtr (3’)? Des

Although all the books say VHF is line of sight this is one of those rule of thumbs things.

In practice its tends to be line of sight + a 1/3.


So Jon are you saying that at the bottom of a 1 mtr height 4mtr frequency wave trough the range should be 5.3 mtr?
Des

So Jon are you saying that at the bottom of a 1 mtr height 4mtr frequency wave trough the range should be 5.3 mtr?
Des

The rule of thumb is based on ideal condition not rough sea.
Brendan's test would be a more acurate way of getting the answer you need.

We have access to lots of computer simulators and programms for working out path loss but the only real way to get a right answer is a practical test.

When I have set up radio system I always do a live test, as I said only way you will get the right answer.

On different days you will get different results too.
As I said so many things can and will effect VHF comms.

Regards

:D :D :D (to Stu & Andy)

To Stu - re. footstraps: Got them too. :D And flares, and spare lifejackets, and throwing line, and MOB ladder (when we remember it's there :rolleyes: ) and fire extinguishers and enough other stuff to sink the boat!!!

Blimey Louise thats one hell of a belt kit you have!!!
Batman would be green with envy!
or is it all in your hand bag? :D


Regards

The rule of thumb is based on ideal condition not rough sea.
Brendan's test would be a more acurate way of getting the answer you need.

We have access to lots of computer simulators and programms for working out path loss but the only real way to get a right answer is a practical test.

When I have set up radio system I always do a live test, as I said only way you will get the right answer.

On different days you will get different results too.
As I said so many things can and will effect VHF comms.

Regards

Is that a yes? Range 5.3mtrs Des

Is that a yes? Range 5.3mtrs Des

Its a - I would need to test before answering that as I would not want you to think it is ir is not without.

That vague enough for you?

Sorry but I would want to test the theory before giving a deff answer.

Jon for politic? no I don't think so!!!

Brendan's test is a good idea of what you can expect.

Regards

It was a short sharp nasty 1 foot chop, though as is ever the way with these things, some were larger some were smaller.

- after 20 minutes in the water, they start looking a lot bigger!

Brendan's test is a good idea of what you can expect.

Regards


Brendan’s test was conducted in 1' swell (unless he made a typo), in my book that is smooth, I am taking about rough weather, the type of weather that makes you fall out of boats. :eek: Still I agree we should test it I think the results will be very interesting. :]
Des

Brendan’s test was conducted in 1' swell (unless he made a typo), in my book that is smooth, I am taking about rough weather, the type of weather that makes you fall out of boats. :eek: Still I agree we should test it I think the results will be very interesting. :]
Des

So a minging day out in the Sloent is on the cards then!!

Just to add to the range debate,


In a high pressure weather system the range of Vhf is dramatically increased. We can listen to Liverpool and Dover coastguard sometimes.

So a minging day out in the Sloent is on the cards then!!
I‘ve got to take the boat out later, should be a bit lumpy. I’ll have to see if the wife is up for a bit of testing, She’ll probably think it is an elaborate ruse to get her life insurance money. :D Des

Just to add to the range debate,


In a high pressure weather system the range of Vhf is dramatically increased. We can listen to Liverpool and Dover coastguard sometimes.
Given the relative heights of your aerials I guess that is almost (+1/3) line of sight. Or is it stratosphere bounce ? Des

Given the relative heights of your aerials I guess that is almost (+1/3) line of sight. Or is it stratosphere bounce ? Des
Actually it is ducting.

Actually it is ducting.

What's that??
Des

Here goes,

High pressure keeps the radio signal trapped near to the Earths surface. As it still needs to go somewhere its range is increased. Imagine squashing a soft ball, its radious will increase.

High pressure keeps the radio signal trapped near to the Earths surface. As it still needs to go somewhere its range is increased. Imagine squashing a soft ball, its radious will increase.

Fascinating - I'd always rationalised the high pressure improvements as due to there being less interference from water particles in clouds mist etc with a high pressure .

Thanks for that Mr Coastie :)

Hi Brendan,

If you look at Jon Broks later post you'll see where I was coming from with my 2 to 3 watts. Real output as opposed to nominal out put based on all the variables that Jon describes...connections, length of cable run, corrosion , type of antennae etc.

In my other career I'm a Signals Officer in the Army and so would have quite a lot of experience with hand held and fixed VHF both marine and otherwise.

Regularly when you test older kit you can find actual radiated output power from the antenna to be down on 50% of what you expect.

While endorsing all of what Jon has said I would tend to be more cautious on the miles and would "generally" say 3 to 5 miles for hand held and 15 miles for a RIB mounted Fixed VHF in good condition. The ranges quoted in RYA manuals are often based on sailing yachts with a much higher mast !! Again as Jon rightly says there are so many variables !!!

Not scientific ............but I did a test a few years ago .Me with a hand held swimming in the middle of one of the large Shannon Lakes at night with a one metre short chop had good Stength 5 comms with a fixed unit in one of the Boat Squad RIBs 3 miles away.

We have a saying in my unit which is " Promise less - Deliver more !!" or err on the side of caution !



Kind regards,

Stuart
Not worried about the "."

Most people can surely work out that fixed is 25W. What concerned me is that you thought handhelds worked at 1-2W? Yes, as you say, handhelds work at 1W at times, but either you have to select a channel where that kicks in automatically, or select it yourself. The rest of the time it's typically 5W.

Anyway, I'm with you on having a fixed set with hand held for backup, but a hand held is far better than none at all. The next issue is taking the exam, and understanding these issues?

where are the masts in the Solent other than at Lee.

That got me interested. I thought Needles had masts, but not sure? Do they have aerials at St Cats as well?

Hi Brendan,

If you look at Jon Broks later post you'll see where I was coming from with my 2 to 3 watts. Real output as opposed to nominal out put based on all the variables that Jon describes...connections, length of cable run, corrosion , type of antennae etc.


Stuart
Err! but you actually said 1-2 watts, and we were talking handhelds, so no probs with length of cable run, connections etc. A good handheld rated for 5W will put out pretty much that

I‘ve got to take the boat out later

My boat is Lymington too. Want to give this a crack? I've got cabin fever. I'll wear furry mid layer under drysuit this time, it got bleedin cold last time. If we can't get three boats out, I'll hang off a line from my boat while you do distance work. Serious!

The other thing with any hand held is that is standard antenna is not very efficient.

We try to make them as good as we can but its all about the "laws of physics Jim"

You are taking a 1/4 wave whip and turning it into a compressed spring.
So you have approx 450mm of wire wound into a length of 160-180mm.

The 5w is what comes out of the top of the unit not the top of the antenna.

So if it is a very poor helicoil you could end up with an ERP (effective radiated power) of a fair bit less.
It would be an average of 3db loss (so half power) I have seen tested (not ours!) that have massive loss.
So you end up with a watt or less being radiated.

Some more helpful stuff for you to chew over!!

Regards

Hi GingerCoastie & Des
Glad you got the Ducting bit done was going to mention that.
Best example I know was a shipping pilot in the persion gulf talking to a oil rig in N Sea and he had a hand held ( probbably throught a repeater I guess).
Now thats what you call a lift !! (Ham talk) only lasted 2-3 minutes.
Jelly

My boat is Lymington too. Want to give this a crack? I've got cabin fever. I'll wear furry mid layer under drysuit this time, it got bleedin cold last time. If we can't get three boats out, I'll hang off a line from my boat while you do distance work. Serious!

It’s a plan :] , but we need the weather for 1 mtr waves, so any time during the summer I suppose. :D

Des

For those really interested in "Ducting" I have found you a website.


http://home.cogeco.ca/~dxinfo/tropo_nwe.html

Hi Brendan, :hi:

I refer you to Jon's post below. :]

As someone who deals with hand helds and field VHF equipment daily for the last 20 years, I would instinctively think of 1 or 2 watts when thinking hand helds. Hence my mention earlier (Like Jon) of effective "radiated Power" or what makes it out of the antenna.

As we all seem to have said, there are a lot of variables once you introduce weather and people to an exact science ! So always I guess, err on the side of caution on your equipments capabilities!

Kind regards,

Stuart




QUOTE=Jon Brooks] The other thing with any hand held is that is standard antenna is not very efficient.

We try to make them as good as we can but its all about the "laws of physics Jim"

You are taking a 1/4 wave whip and turning it into a compressed spring.
So you have approx 450mm of wire wound into a length of 160-180mm.

The 5w is what comes out of the top of the unit not the top of the antenna.

So if it is a very poor helicoil you could end up with an ERP (effective radiated power) of a fair bit less.
It would be an average of 3db loss (so half power) I have seen tested (not ours!) that have massive loss.
So you end up with a watt or less being radiated.

Some more helpful stuff for you to chew over!!

Regards [/QUOTE]

Do I get an award for starting this massive thread? It has helped though as my new handheld arrives on Tuesday and the fixed vhs will be purchased at the boat show and installed shortly after. Will go away now and try to think of another topic to get you all going..... :cool:

Ollie

Nice to know that there was a happy ending Ollie !!

Stuart

Will go away now and try to think of another topic to get you all going..... :cool:

Ollie

Excellent, this one was great fun!

I would instinctively think of 1 or 2 watts when thinking hand helds.

Stuart, That's very reasonable in the context you quote, though most people are going to assume that low power has been selected, as that is what handhelds are rated in, 5W high power, 1W low power .....though as stated, power from aerial is somewhat different. I've always assumed handheld aerials to be pretty inefficient, but never seen any numbers around it before now.

Great informative thread, and look forward to meeting up with Des to try some experiments.

Cheers, Brendan and Des for having the guts to give it a try. Rather you than me!!! Let us know when it's happening - maybe we could all come and watch. It could be the start of a whole new section - Put To The Test By Real Ribsters! You could test something every month, say. :] :D

Hi Des - can't remember off hand. Will get Richard to post when he gets home - he usually has a better memory for these things than I do! :rolleyes:

Louise, we won't accept anything other than the result of a real test.

:D

:D :D :D

So if it is a very poor helicoil you could end up with an ERP (effective radiated power) of a fair bit less.

My experiment was with an M1 Euro V which I know gives better transmit and reception than many handhelds, so the figures I came up with (miles) had better be revised down for many sets! What does the Euro V transmit at the aerial?

If Des and I do the rough water test, we'd better accumulate a good selection of different sets to make it worthwhile (and all of them had better be waterproof, cos they are going in the water with me! :) )

Cheers, Brendan and Des for having the guts to give it a try. Rather you than me!!! Let us know when it's happening - maybe we could all come and watch. It could be the start of a whole new section - Put To The Test By Real Ribsters! You could test something every month, say. :] :D

You'll soon find out that I'm renowned for trying things to destruction point!

If you want to come along to a trial, I'd be very appreciative....there's nothing worse than being in the water all by yourself..having someone in a boat nearby yelling abuse at you is very encouraging when you get cold and tired :V