Heavy load

I have a boat/trailer combination that weighs 5tons. Trailer is air braked. Does anybody hbow if it's UK legal to tow this behind a big (3 ton) pickup, Ford f250 or similar.

I have a boat/trailer combination that weighs 5tons. Trailer is air braked. Does anybody hbow if it's UK legal to tow this behind a big (3 ton) pickup, Ford f250 or similar.
As long as the total weight of the rig doesn't exceed 8250kg (you'll need a class 1 HGV or unrestricted C1E licence if it is) and it's within the limits of the pickup it should be legal.

What ya bought? :D

As long as the total weight of the rig doesn't exceed 8250kg (you'll need a class 1 HGV or unrestricted C1E licence if it is) What ya bought? :D

Ya sure? :D What about CE (102) ?

I have a boat/trailer combination that weighs 5tons. Trailer is air braked. Does anybody hbow if it's UK legal to tow this behind a big (3 ton) pickup, Ford f250 or similar.


You got a Yank-Tank with air brakes?

"Subcategory C1+E allows vehicles to be combined with a trailer over 750kgs MAM provided the combination does not exceed 12 tonnes MAM and the laden weight of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle."

So the intended combination of 5 tonne trailer/ 3 tonne truck falls outside C1E as well.

"All drivers who passed a car test before 1 January 1997 retain their existing entitlement to tow trailers until their licence expires. This means they are generally entitled to drive a vehicle and trailer combination up to 8.25 tonnes MAM"

So if the pick-up is plated for 5 tonnes towing (with coupled brakes) and the Pick up is plated MAM 3 tonnes can you use your car licence? :]

"All drivers who passed a car test before 1 January 1997 retain their existing entitlement to tow trailers until their licence expires. This means they are generally entitled to drive a vehicle and trailer combination up to 8.25 tonnes MAM"

So if the pick-up is plated for 5 tonnes towing (with coupled brakes) and the Pick up is plated MAM 3 tonnes can you use your car licence? :]

Yes-fairly sure of that as long as you have the C1E (restricted to 8250kg).You won't have the 8250kg restriction removed unless you do a C1E test or if you have a C+E .

So how do the fifth wheel trailers work?

The caravan club Mag for October(I'm not a member) has a fifth wheel trailer unit at 3200kg with a Maximum Technically Permitted Laden Mass (MTPLM) of 4300kg and a load on the fifth wheel (hitch)of approx 500kg they towed this behind a Nissan Navara the unit had air brakes powered from the tow vehicle.
I can't imagine they were on the wrong side of pc plod

"Subcategory C1+E allows vehicles to be combined with a trailer over 750kgs MAM provided the combination does not exceed 12 tonnes MAM and the laden weight of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle."

So the intended combination of 5 tonne trailer/ 3 tonne truck falls outside C1E as well.


You're right- it's illegal unless the tow vehicles unladen weight is over 5 tonnes.

This confuses me somewhat as I suspect it means a lot of vans towing trailers are being driven illegally.

So how do the fifth wheel trailers work?

The caravan club Mag for October(I'm not a member) has a fifth wheel trailer unit at 3200kg with a Maximum Technically Permitted Laden Mass (MTPLM) of 4300kg and a load on the fifth wheel (hitch)of approx 500kg they towed this behind a Nissan Navara the unit had air brakes powered from the tow vehicle.
I can't imagine they were on the wrong side of pc plod

Maybe the driver has a C+E licence. as far as I'm aware it covers me for pretty much anything as long as the weights are legal.

Straight copy of licence codes from Wiki:-

This is a list of the codes that might be found on a UK driving licence.
Licence Code Vehicle type Minimum Age Notes
A1 Motorcycle 17 Light motorcycles with a cubic capacity not exceeding 125cc and of a power output not exceeding 11kW (14.6 bhp).
A Motorcycle 17 Motorcycles up to 25kW (33 bhp) and a power to mass ratio not exceeding 0.16W/kg. Motorcycle combination with a power mass ratio not exceeding 0.16W/kg.
A Motorcycle 21[5] Any size motorcycle with or without a sidecar.
B1 3 or 4 wheeled light vehicles 17 Motor tricycles/quadricycles up to 550kg unladen.[6]
B Cars 17 [7]

* Motor vehicles with a MAM not exceeding 3500 kg having not more than 8 passenger seats with a trailer up to 750 kg.
* Combinations of vehicles in Category B and a trailer, where MAM of the combination does not exceed 3500 kg and the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen mass of the towing vehicle.
Example: A vehicle with an unladen weight of 1.25 tonnes and a MAM of 2 tonnes coupled with a trailer with a MAM of 1.25 tonnes could be driven by the holder of a category B entitlement, as the MAM of the combination does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle.

B Minibuses 21 Vehicles with between 9 and 16 passenger seats not for hire or reward. MAM not exceeding 3.5T or 4.25T including specialist equipment for the carriage of disabled passengers. No trailer of any size may be pulled. B licence must have been held for 2 years.
B (Automatic) Automatic Cars 17 As cars (B), but only those with automatic transmission.[8]
B+E Cars with trailers 17 Combinations of vehicles consisting of a vehicle in category B and a trailer, where the combination does not come within category B. The MAM of the trailer must not exceed the mass of the unladen towing vehicle[9]
C1 Medium sized vehicle 18 Vehicles between 3500kg and 7500kg with a trailer up to 750 kg.
C1+E Medium sized vehicle with trailers 21 Combinations of vehicles where the towing vehicle is in subcategory C1 and its trailer has a MAM of over 750kg provided that the MAM of the combination thus formed does not exceed 12000 kg and MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen mass of the towing vehicle.
C Large vehicles 21 Vehicles over 3500kg with a trailer up to 750kg.
C+E Large vehicles with trailers 21 Vehicles over 3500kg with a trailer over 750kg.
D1 Minibuses 21 Vehicles with between 9 and 16 passenger seats with a trailer up to 750kg. See also under B
D1+E Minibuses with trailers 21 Combinations of vehicles where the towing vehicle is in subcategory D1 and its trailer has a MAM of over 750 kg, provided that the MAM of the combination thus formed does not exceed 12000kg, and the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen mass of the towing vehicle.
D Buses 21 [10] Any bus with more than 8 passenger seats with a trailer up to 750 kg.
D+E Buses with trailers 21 Any bus with more than 8 passenger seats with a trailer over 750kg.
f Agricultural Tractors 16 [11] N/A
g Road rollers 21 [12] N/A
h Tracked vehicles 21 N/A
k Mowing machine or vehicle controlled by a pedestrian 16 N/A
l Electric vehicles 17 Category now deprecated - tests no longer available (since 2001) for this category. Vehicles now fit into category B1 or B.
n Vehicles used for very short distances on public roads N/A Category now deprecated - tests no longer available (since 2001) for this category. Vehicles now fit into category B1 or B.
p Motorcycles 16 Engine capacity must not exceed 50cc and the maximum design speed must not exceed 50km/h (31mph)

Notes: MAM = Maximum authorised mass


1. ^ UK driving licence info
2. ^ [1]
3. ^ BBC News | UK | Drivers face new photocard licence
4. ^ DVLA INF45/1 "Your new Driving Licence" May 2007
5. ^ Age 21 or 2 years from date of standard A test pass.
6. ^ Age 16 you may be issued a licence if you are in receipt of the higher rate of disability living allowance. However if the rate is withdrawn, the normal minimum age for driving a car (17 years) applies.
7. ^ At the age of 16 you can be issued a licence if you are in receipt of the higher rate of disability living allowance. However if the rate is withdrawn, the normal minimum age for driving a car (17 years) applies.
8. ^ At age 16 you may be issued a licence if you are in receipt of the higher rate of disability living allowance. However if the rate is withdrawn, the normal minimum age for driving a car (17 years) applies.
9. ^ If you passed your category B or B automatic test before 1 January 1997 your licence will already show C1, C1E (8.25 tonnes), D1, D1E (not for hire or reward) as entitlement flowing from the category B.
10. ^ Age 17 if member of armed forces; age 18 under certain other cirumstances
11. ^ Age 16 for tractors less than 2.45m wide. It must only pull trailers less than 2.45m wide with two wheels, or four close-coupled
12. ^ Age 17 for small road-rollers with metal or hard rollers. They must not be steam powered, weigh more than 11.69 tonnes or be made for carrying loads

Maybe the driver has a C+E licence. as far as I'm aware it covers me for pretty much anything as long as the weights are legal.

No just called them normal car licence before 97 or whenever it was they changed the rules for the trailer test etc:eek:

No just called them normal car licence before 97 or whenever it was they changed the rules for the trailer test etc:eek:

Hmmm.... I don't think that's legal but it'd take a clued up copper to know.

Hmmm.... it'd take a clued up copper to know.


I'm sure I'd find one of them 30 seccods after I put the rig on the road.

A friend has offered me his F250 with a Cummins V8 diesel and a fifth wheel coupling. I'm quite interested in it as I need to get the jet boat more mobile.
what I don't want to do is buy a fkk off big truck I don't have a use for........again :D

I'm sure I'd find one of them 30 seccods after I put the rig on the road.

A friend has offered me his F250 with a Cummins V8 diesel and a fifth wheel coupling. I'm quite interested in it as I need to get the jet boat more mobile.
what I don't want to do is buy a fkk off big truck I don't have a use for........again :D

If you're using it commercially you'll need an operators licence and a tachograph fitted.

If you're using it commercially you'll need an operators licence and a tachograph fitted.

plan b methinks!

and a tachograph fitted.

Whats the rule on that one again Nos ? isnt it only if you are using the vehicle for hire or reward, or you are carrying your own goods greater than 50 miles from your operating centre ? I cant remember ?

Whats the rule on that one again Nos ? isnt it only if you are using the vehicle for hire or reward, or you are carrying your own goods greater than 50 miles from your operating centre ? I cant remember ?


Link on this thread..post 12. Page 14-ish of the link:)


http://rib.net/forum/showthread.php?t=27046&page=2

Yes-fairly sure of that as long as you have the C1E (restricted to 8250kg).You won't have the 8250kg restriction removed unless you do a C1E test or if you have a C+E .

the problem then may arisewith the fact that with a 5th wheel coupling it may class the vehicle as articulated or semi trailer and not a normal close coupled one ,so you may need a lgv licence even if its less than the permited weight ,

the problem then may arisewith the fact that with a 5th wheel coupling it may class the vehicle as articulated or semi trailer and not a normal close coupled one ,so you may need a lgv licence even if its less than the permited weight ,

i know im going off track here but its like recovery trucks dont need an m.o.t test or tacograph or keep to any driving hours if only used for recovering crashed vehicles from the accident to the recovery yard ,but if used to carry a vehicle from a garage to another place that is called vehicles transportation and it then has to have mot and taco fitted and flashing amber lights cannot be used on the move as its classed as a normal goods vehicle .

i know im going off track here but its like recovery trucks dont need an m.o.t test or tacograph or keep to any driving hours if only used for recovering crashed vehicles from the accident to the recovery yard ,but if used to carry a vehicle from a garage to another place that is called vehicles transportation and it then has to have mot and taco fitted and flashing amber lights cannot be used on the move as its classed as a normal goods vehicle .

That'll be changing soon regarding tachos and recovery trucks. The EU has a lot to answer for.

Hmmm.... I don't think that's legal but it'd take a clued up copper to know.


4500 KG trailer gross weight, 3160 kg load capacity
(More if you take the cattle shed off it)

http://www.batesontrailers.com/trailer-detail.asp?ID=108&cat=7

It says can be driven by a normal C1 licence
(the standard car licence obtained before January 1997)

£7500 + £3500 for the brake conversion

May get the welder out later, need something to do over the winter :thumbs:

4500 KG trailer gross weight, 3160 kg load capacity
(More if you take the cattle shed off it)

http://www.batesontrailers.com/trailer-detail.asp?ID=108&cat=7

It says can be driven by a normal C1 licence
(the standard car licence obtained before January 1997)

£7500 + £3500 for the brake conversion

May get the welder out later, need something to do over the winter :thumbs:

I'm still unsure on whether that's legal or not. I think you probably need to talk to the NTTA or a Ministry copper. Bear in mind I've seen a few motorhomes based on 10 tonners where the company tell you you don't need a class C licence yet you do. I wouldn't trust the word of the company selling it to you as it's not their responsibility.

B+E Cars with trailers 17 Combinations of vehicles consisting of a vehicle in category B and a trailer, where the combination does not come within category B. The MAM of the trailer must not exceed the mass of the unladen towing vehicle[9]

Nos..the wording for B+E on your link is NOT what is on the Gov't web site.

B = Motor vehicles with a MAM not exceeding 3500kg having not more than eight passenger seats with a trailer up to 750kg. Combinations of towing vehicles in category B and a trailer, where the MAM of the combination does not exceed 3500kg and the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen mass of the towing vehicle

B+E = Combinations of vehicles consisting of a vehicle in category B and a trailer, where the combination does not come within category B

As you can see there's no relationship between trailer and vehicle weight given in B+E. A slip up maybe?:]

QUOTE=bedajim;270316]
It says can be driven by a normal C1 licence..[/QUOTE]

Yup, that’s what it says on their web site..but


C1 is for vehicles with 3,500<MAM<7,500. (Medium sized vehicles)

A “light good vehicle” is under 3,500 KG I believe, so falls outside C1.

Navara shown has MAM of 3,210 KG with payload of 1,050 Kg as far as I can find out. If you’re towing under “C1+E” then MAM of trailer cannot exceed the unladen mass of the towing vehicle. IE trailer MAM of 2,160 Kg.

If it was driven under B+E class then I could kind of understand that….*if* the Navara was re-plated to show GTW of 7,710 and trailer MAM of 4,500 Kg (Currently shown as 2,600/2,700 (depending on version) they could be relying on this (DFT website)


The maximum laden weight of a trailer which may be towed by a light goods vehicle depends on both the stated gross train weight of the towing vehicle (GTW) and the vehicle manufacturer's recommended maximum permissible trailer weight. Neither the maximum permissible trailer weight or the maximum gross train weight (the laden weight of the trailer plus the laden weight of the towing vehicle) should be exceeded. It is possible that the stated gross train weight is less than the sum of the stated maximum permissible laden weight of the towing vehicle and the stated maximum permissible laden trailer weight. In this case the towing vehicle and the trailer must be loaded such that each does not exceed its individual maximum limit and the sum of both does not exceed the maximum gross train weight.

I am at a loss to see how they can say it’s “C1”….. any ideas?

QUOTE=bedajim;270316]
It says can be driven by a normal C1 licence..

Yup, that’s what it says on their web site..but


C1 is for vehicles with 3,500<MAM<7,500. (Medium sized vehicles)

A “light good vehicle” is under 3,500 KG I believe, so falls outside C1.

Navara shown has MAM of 3,210 KG with payload of 1,050 Kg as far as I can find out. If you’re towing under “C1+E” then MAM of trailer cannot exceed the unladen mass of the towing vehicle. IE trailer MAM of 2,160 Kg.

If it was driven under B+E class then I could kind of understand that….*if* the Navara was re-plated to show GTW of 7,710 and trailer MAM of 4,500 Kg (Currently shown as 2,600/2,700 (depending on version) they could be relying on this (DFT website)


The maximum laden weight of a trailer which may be towed by a light goods vehicle depends on both the stated gross train weight of the towing vehicle (GTW) and the vehicle manufacturer's recommended maximum permissible trailer weight. Neither the maximum permissible trailer weight or the maximum gross train weight (the laden weight of the trailer plus the laden weight of the towing vehicle) should be exceeded. It is possible that the stated gross train weight is less than the sum of the stated maximum permissible laden weight of the towing vehicle and the stated maximum permissible laden trailer weight. In this case the towing vehicle and the trailer must be loaded such that each does not exceed its individual maximum limit and the sum of both does not exceed the maximum gross train weight.

I am at a loss to see how they can say it’s “C1”….. any ideas? [/QUOTE]

Speaking to the trailer people they split the load between the trailer and the truck 3 tonne on the trailer and 1.5 tonne on the truck :eek:

Navara has air suspension fitted and air brakes on the trailer

But

Navara can carry approx 1 tonne in the back and 100kg on a standard ball hitch & tow 2600kg

So no idea nothing seems to add up for it, but they can deliver one in 4 -5 weeks :eek:

I can't see how it's C1+E even. Looks like B+E to me and a dodgy one at that as the MAM for the trailer has to be considerably higher than the weight of the pickup even though it's split. Not sure how they work it out.

It appears the wiki is wrong-here's the licence categories on Pdf for anyone interested. Appears that the 5th wheel trailer is legal too as long as it's within the axle weights for the vehicle.

However, you still need a tacho fitted and an operators licence for anything used commercially where the train weight is over 3500kg-see this link (http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/freight/road/workingtime/drivershoursgoods.pdf) page 10.

... Appears that the 5th wheel trailer is legal too as long as it's within the axle weights for the vehicle..


Nos,

Can you point me in the direction of the bumf on 5th Wheelers?

Can't find Navara rated for towing anything more than 2,700 Kg....:] So 4,500..even allowing for 5th wheel weight of 1,050 (Navara Payload) is still "out" ? Have asked trailer manufacturer to explain. If they can be "legal" I am tempted to look hard at them:D

the problem then may arisewith the fact that with a 5th wheel coupling it may class the vehicle as articulated or semi trailer and not a normal close coupled one ,so you may need a lgv licence even if its less than the permited weight , There's no distinction between trailer types for licencing purposes, and withe the exception of "grandfather" rights there hasn't been since the old HGV I II III licences were replaced by C and C+E (about fifteen years or so ago).

John

Nos,

Can you point me in the direction of the bumf on 5th Wheelers?

Can't find Navara rated for towing anything more than 2,700 Kg....:] So 4,500..even allowing for 5th wheel weight of 1,050 (Navara Payload) is still "out" ? Have asked trailer manufacturer to explain. If they can be "legal" I am tempted to look hard at them:D
I think the old shape Navara had a higher towing weight-Honest Johns says the 02-05 models were rated to 3000kg though they say some pretty uncomplimentary things about the engine too.
http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/carbycar/index.htm?md=638

As John said, there's no distinction between 5th wheel and normal trailers. As long as it all falls within the plated axle weights for the car and trailer it's legal as long as you've got a licence to drive it.

I get the feeling it's a bit of a grey area though. I wouldn't be surprised if it was 'clarified' by DVLA at some point which may well screw some people.

[QUOTE=Rogue Wave;270231A friend has offered me his F250 with a Cummins V8 diesel and a fifth wheel coupling. I'm quite interested in it as I need to get the jet boat more mobile.
what I don't want to do is buy a fkk off big truck I don't have a use for........again :D [/QUOTE]

An F250 with a Cummins diesel would be a strange beast given that Ford fit their own Powerstroke units to F series trucks. Are you sure you don't mean a Dodge Ram 2500?

An F250 with a Cummins diesel would be a strange beast given that Ford fit their own Powerstroke units to F series trucks. Are you sure you don't mean a Dodge Ram 2500?

Not "uncommon" to repower with Cummins in the UK... Common as muck engine here. Thought about dropping the one out of my old Leyland into my truck to replace the 351 Windsor....but Feck it..it don't do enough miles to warrant that..and that V8 sound... you canna beat it:D

An F250 with a Cummins diesel would be a strange beast given that Ford fit their own Powerstroke units to F series trucks. Are you sure you don't mean a Dodge Ram 2500?


Yes your right enough in what you say

The Ford Powerstorokes AKA powerjokes are straight 6 engines and are designed by International my buddy, a marine engineer, passed on last year and his widow is asking me if I was interested in the pickup. When he was alive I remember having a chat with him about the truck and he told me that for a short period they used Cummins engines which were vastly superior to the Ford lumps.

I haven't been to look at it since it was offered to me as I'm determined to find a use for it before I saddle myself with a big road engine. (I'm so proud of my willpower :thumbs:)

To get back on to the thrust of the question
I am not a director of the company who owns the boat (my wife and son are)
so if I were to tow it somewhere for no reward would I need a tachograph amd an O licence. I'm not so bothered about the tacho but the O licene comes with a lot of hoo haa for somethig I'm unlikely to do more tha 5 times a year.

To get back on to the thrust of the question
I am not a director of the company who owns the boat (my wife and son are)

Well should be quite simple then. What would a business case suggest?

contract someone else to tow it at £200 a trip x 5 pa so £1000

or

DIY with suitable vehicle, if so what are the annual costs?

Pete

To get back on to the thrust of the question

How about becoming a gippo then :thumbs: .. tow anything of any size, in any combination with impunity, and I'm not sure if they even have to run on white :eek:

Stu, I think you might need an MOT for the trailer as well.

http://www.motorcaravanning.com/vehicles/towing.htm


You need to ring VOSA really and have a chat. Just don't give your name ;)

How about becoming a gippo then :thumbs: .. tow anything of any size, in any combination with impunity, and I'm not sure if they even have to run on white :eek:


Good point, there is always that option, I'm certainly scruffy enough to get away with it and I am alergic to paperwork.:D

A white Transit should do the job then :thumbs:

How about becoming a gippo then :thumbs: .. tow anything of any size, in any combination with impunity, and I'm not sure if they even have to run on white :eek:

The fact that it is someone else's boat will help your disguise ;).

How about becoming a gippo

nott an opshun yew scoch git

itt wud meen jumpin upp a soshul cllass orr too

garF

Harsh.......but fair. :D :rolleyes:

nott an opshun yew scoch git

itt wud meen jumpin upp a soshul cllass orr too

garF

But surely you've enough Chianti on the 1974 Shetland to go round GarF :eh:? and help him on his way .. I hear Mrs GarF likes some fine Cheese ?