A 4x4 question (sorry). 4HLR vs 4LLR

A dumb 4x4 question and I really SHOULD know this.

With all this snow, seems opportune to ask.

Under what conditions should I be using 4HLR vs 4LLR or vice versa in my Shogun? I appreciate LLR is Low ratio (good for rock climbing). The manual is very unhelpful (describes LLR for "getting out of tight spots").

Deep sand?
Slippery slipways?
Snow?
Grass?
Deep mud?

Anyone recommend a low cost 4x4 training course?

Thanks

Rich

Rich,

It all depends on the conditions in each of the circumstances you have stated.

Don't be afraid to use it and try it out for yourself. If you don't use these functions on 4 X 4s you eventually get problems with seals etc drying out.

I wouldn't have use Low Ratio today to get to work for instance but if I was crossing a muddy field then I would certainly consider it.

I wouldn't use it on a road or track with 1 inch of snow but certainly would if it was over 1 foot deep.

As regards a course here is somewhere to start looking.

http://www.landrover.org/Links.html

Regards Nick.

A dumb 4x4 question and I really SHOULD know this.

With all this snow, seems opportune to ask.

Under what conditions should I be using 4HLR vs 4LLR or vice versa in my Shogun? I appreciate LLR is Low ratio (good for rock climbing). The manual is very unhelpful (describes LLR for "getting out of tight spots").

Deep sand?
Slippery slipways?
Snow?
Grass?
Deep mud?

Anyone recommend a low cost 4x4 training course?

Thanks

Rich



2x4 - dry roads and normal driving

4x4 high - grass fields, snow, very very wet roads

4x4 low - sand, deeper snow, mud, fording water, boat/car recovery etc

You may also find that 4x4 switching is advised with the car stopped and it's best to be in the low range before you need it :)

Do you get transmission windup on grippy surfaces with this setup then? Advantages of the LR are they are always in 4wd.

Don't really see that as an advantage of the landrover.. Would much rather just be rwd on the roads all the time.

In my pickup today I only used 4wd on a handfull of roads which were completely covered in snow or up steep hills.
If you use 4wd on grippy surfaces when your tyres can't spin you get transmission windup which will do some damage over a period of time.

Low box, just for steep hills, wading, deep mud. Situations when you can't or don't want to drive at normal road speeds.
4wdHI, for snowy roads, slightly muddy fields, gravel tracks maybe. When you want to keep up a decent speed but aren't on a grippy surface.

Harry

Do you get transmission windup on grippy surfaces with this setup then? Advantages of the LR are they are always in 4wd.


yes big time the truck jumps as the tyres let go

Don't really see that as an advantage of the landrover.. Would much rather just be rwd on the roads all the time.

In my pickup today I only used 4wd on a handfull of roads which were completely covered in snow or up steep hills.
If you use 4wd on grippy surfaces when your tyres can't spin you get transmission windup which will do some damage over a period of time.

Low box, just for steep hills, wading, deep mud. Situations when you can't or don't want to drive at normal road speeds.
4wdHI, for snowy roads, slightly muddy fields, gravel tracks maybe. When you want to keep up a decent speed but aren't on a grippy surface.

Harry



The advantages of full time 4wd are huge - for example today I was driving some very slippery roads that had patches of tarmac showing through now and again. It certainly didn't warrent diff lock but I know it would have been hard work in a RWD car. With the LR system you only get wind up if you use the diff lock. When I hit the Roman Road I had to use diff lock - virgin snow over sheet ice!!!

Also when you are towing permanent 4wd is much safer.

It sounds to me very much like the old system they had on the Series Land Rovers years ago.

OK great thanks all. The other obvious question is...

When pulling away in LLR (or HLR) on a slipway say, or on ice - is there any advantage to being in 2nd gear (4 gear auto box, diesel) instead of relying on the auto-box?

Thanks

Rich

Its very similar.

I have the same setup on my Frontera. Can be a pain in the not so bad conditions where you only need 4 wheel drive briefly. But I suppose it does save on fuel when in 2 wheel drive mode.

Mine is an absolute b----- to steer at slow speeds in 4 wheel drive on tarmac. In fact you can't steer it.

Looks like a lot of Jap 4 x 4 s favour this setup.

OK great thanks all. The other obvious question is...

When pulling away in LLR (or HLR) on a slipway say, or on ice - is there any advantage to being in 2nd gear (4 gear auto box, diesel) instead of relying on the auto-box?

Thanks

Rich


Doesn't your vehicle have some sort of system that you can switch in when towing from start off that stops the auto box kicking in to 2nd. My mates Toyota does and it stops the vehicle struggling because the gears have changed too early.

Doesn't your vehicle have some sort of system that you can switch in when towing from start off that stops the auto box kicking in to 2nd. My mates Toyota does and it stops the vehicle struggling because the gears have changed too early.

Yes it does, but I'm wondering if there's an advantage to starting in 2nd i.e selecting 2nd on the auto box.

Don't know about your setup but starting off I doubt it will select a higher gear just because you have put it into 2nd. When you are going down a slope or even just slowing for a junction etc then changing down the box manually can be a big help.

Don't know about your setup but starting off I doubt it will select a higher gear just because you have put it into 2nd. When you are going down a slope or even just slowing for a junction etc then changing down the box manually can be a big help.

D'oh... of course the car will always start off in 1st no matter what you select. Thanks for reminding me!

Sounds like there's an advantage to locking it in 1st.

D'oh... of course the car will always start off in 1st no matter what you select. Thanks for reminding me!

Sounds like there's an advantage to locking it in 1st.

Yes there is - it means that the box won't change up just when you don't want it to - just use it like a manual without a clutch.

I THINK some of the newer discoveries and Rangies will actually lock into whatever gear you select but not sure.

Mine is an absolute b----- to steer at slow speeds in 4 wheel drive on tarmac. In fact you can't steer it.

Ok, here is the instructors explanation. I'll try and keep it simple. All four wheel drive vehicals will have three diffs. Front, center and rear. A font and rear diff allows a variation in speed between the wheels on the same axle, thus allowing the car to turn a corner. The center diff does the same thing but allows a variation in speed between the front and rear axles for cornering. The rear of the vehical will allways track differently from the front, the longer the vehical the worse the track(an artic going round a tight roundabout for instance). Ok, permant 4x4 ie Landrover works using this system. But take one wheel off the ground and all the drive will take the path of least resistance ie 1 wheel drive. Engage the diff lock and drive is then locked 50% front and the same rear. But you wont have a speed differential for cornering and this is why it is difficult to steer. The problem is that not only are you damaging your tyres but you run the risk of transmission wind up. In other words the diff will explode:eek: You may also find that yur 4x4 lever cannot be disengaged, if this is the cas just select reverse and unwind the diff.

We could then go onto talk about traction control and rear diff locks on certain vehicals.

As for training, well I might be able to sort a level 1 course out in the north notts area for a small contribution:thumbs: :D

Ok, here is the instructors explanation. I'll try and keep it simple. All four wheel drive vehicals will have three diffs. Front, center and rear. A font and rear diff allows a variation in speed between the wheels on the same axle, thus allowing the car to turn a corner. The center diff does the same thing but allows a variation in speed between the front and rear axles for cornering. The rear of the vehical will allways track differently from the front, the longer the vehical the worse the track(an artic going round a tight roundabout for instance). Ok, permant 4x4 ie Landrover works using this system. But take one wheel off the ground and all the drive will take the path of least resistance ie 1 wheel drive. Engage the diff lock and drive is then locked 50% front and the same rear. But you wont have a speed differential for cornering and this is why it is difficult to steer. The problem is that not only are you damaging your tyres but you run the risk of transmission wind up. In other words the diff will explode:eek: You may also find that yur 4x4 lever cannot be disengaged, if this is the cas just select reverse and unwind the diff.

We could then go onto talk about traction control and rear diff locks on certain vehicals.

As for training, well I might be able to sort a level 1 course out in the north notts area for a small contribution:thumbs: :D

Good explanation thanks. PM sent.

Cheers

Rich

I'm sure on Shoguns I have seen you can select 4wd high range WITHOUT locking the centre diff which is basically the same setup as in a Land Rover without the diff locked - this is what I would use in any mildly slippery conditions, and lock the centre diff if it gets icy.

So you should have four settings

2WD high range
4WD high range, centre diff open
4WD high range, centre diff locked
4WD low range, centre diff locked

Some also have a rear axle diff lock but really that is for off road use only unless trying to get out of a ditch or something following an unscheduled "off"!

I think it depends on the age of the Shogun.

Ok, here is the instructors explanation. I'll try and keep it simple. All four wheel drive vehicals will have three diffs. Front, center and rear. .....: :D

Is that true? As a Land Rover Experience instructor...how much do they teach you about vehicles?

I'm sure on Shoguns I have seen you can select 4wd high range WITHOUT locking the centre diff which is basically the same setup as in a Land Rover without the diff locked - this is what I would use in any mildly slippery conditions, and lock the centre diff if it gets icy.

So you should have four settings

2WD high range
4WD high range, centre diff open
4WD high range, centre diff locked
4WD low range, centre diff locked

Some also have a rear axle diff lock but really that is for off road use only unless trying to get out of a ditch or something following an unscheduled "off"!

Stephen

This is how both my Manual Shoguns have been.
basically you go up the lever the more stuck you get, then push the rear diff lock button as a last resort.:D

Some of the special edition Shoguns like the slightly cheaper 'Field' ones do not have the diff locks. When I brought my latest one the Mitsubishi saleman couldn't understand why I wanted a normal vehicle he had with the diff locks instead of the special edition which had a leather interior. Dick head!

For towing its reccommended to use 4WD High.
I also use 4WD High for general use on rough roads, grass and snow.

I have only got to the point of pushing the button a few times, once when both car axles and the boat trailer axle were burried deep in Hayling Island beach. Dragged itself, the boat and trailer out no problem.

Nasher

I'm sure on Shoguns I have seen you can select 4wd high range WITHOUT locking the centre diff which is basically the same setup as in a Land Rover without the diff locked - this is what I would use in any mildly slippery conditions, and lock the centre diff if it gets icy.

So you should have four settings

2WD high range
4WD high range, centre diff open
4WD high range, centre diff locked
4WD low range, centre diff locked

Some also have a rear axle diff lock but really that is for off road use only unless trying to get out of a ditch or something following an unscheduled "off"!

My 1998 model has the 4 settings you mention. I do use normal 4WD (centre diff open) in normal slippery conditions. In fact, I have only ever used this setting on all slipways no problem. Sandy beaches - I switch to diff lock.

The later models have the 'thinking mode option' setting the wheels automatically between 2 & 4 wheels using a viscous-coupling.

My car also has the rear diff lock (may be optional on some shoguns, not sure). I have had cause to use this when stuck pulling the boat out on a very deep sandy beach - but I don't want to think about that memory...:eek: :eek: :eek: It also has leather interior (Nasher :thumbs: )

With the 'hold' setting there's effectively 6 settings so there's really no excuse for getting stuck :thumbs:

Is that true? As a Land Rover Experience instructor...how much do they teach you about vehicles?

It isn't true if you are talking about all 4x4s not just LR.

All (I think! in case somebody can think of one with hydraulic wheel motors or something...) will have a front and rear axle diff but not all have a centre diff.

Old Series Land Rovers for example, and many others with "selectable" 4WD i.e. with a 2WD mode (1990s Mitsub L200 for example) don't have a centre diff, when you engage 4WD the drive is "solid" basically the same as if the centre diff is locked on a vehicle which has a centre diff. Suzuki Jimnys are the same, as are the old Suzuki Samurais, and some current Ford models (Everest and Ranger). Some vehicles have auto-disengaging front hubs but this is just to stop all the front drivetrain (diff, propshaft etc) spinning when you are in 2WD - in theory to reduce frictional losses and save some fuel, though whether it does is probably debatable.

Freelanders have a viscous coupling to the back axle which stiffens up if the front wheels start to slip and drives to the rear.

Freelander 2s have a complicated system in their rear diff called a Haldex diff which I don't fully understand but I think in the way it works its a complicated equivalent to the visc coupling on the old Freelander.

As Nasher said, on the Shoguns its recommended to use 4WD for towing, otherwise you are putting all the grunt through the rear diff and 4WD spreads the load. No idea what the "new" Shoguns have got though (the ugly 3.2L ones) as I have never really looked at those, but I think they are permanent 4WD.

Jap spec Pajeros don't have a rear diff lock.

Personally I like the Land Rover system, simple and it always works, which is more than you can say for traction control electronics, on the Freelander 2 launch here the journos had one vehicle crossaxled in a ditch and one of the LR guys said "it should drive out of there with Terrain Response" - "well it isn't..." out with the rope :D it does work well but is not as dependable as proper axle difflocks which is why that is what my Defender will be getting when I stop pouring money into the hypalon industry :rolleyes:

Stephen

Hi.

I have an (Ugly) 3.2l TD. But the system is exactly the same as my old 2.8l TD was.
I can only refer to manual gearboxes though not autos.

2WD high range
4WD high range, centre diff open
4WD high range, centre diff locked
4WD low range, centre diff locked
Rear Diff lock botton on dash.

Nasher

No idea what the "new" Shoguns have got though (the ugly 3.2L ones) as I have never really looked at those, but I think they are permanent 4WD.



I pretty sure the newer Shoguns still have the option of 2 or 4 wheel drive (like the old style) but also have the intelligent 4/2 wheel drive option using the Viscous-Coupling principle. Nasher?

I pretty sure the newer Shoguns still have the option of 2 or 4 wheel drive (like the old style) but also have the intelligent 4/2 wheel drive option using the Viscous-Coupling principle. Nasher?

My December 2002 3.2TD with manual gearbox does not have the intelligent system, it could just be on the Autos or very late ones.

Although I've moaned about it lately, I do like it a lot.

But still want a post Sept 2004 4.2l TD Amazon.

Nasher.

It isn't true if you are talking about all 4x4s not just LR.....



Stephen... I was being facetious.....:) Having owned, broken and repaired many 4 wheel drive vehicles, I was having a "pop" at an "instructor" talking nonsense....:thumbs:

Reading this makes me glad my old 2.8 Isuzu Mu is the simplest 4x4 I've come across bar a series 1 or 2 Landy.

2/4H/4L switchable. Manual locking front hubs. No centre diff.31x10.5x15 All terrain tyres.
All I could really want on top of that is a difflock for the rear axle but it digs itself out of everything I can throw at it anyway.

Is that true? As a Land Rover Experience instructor...how much do they teach you about vehicles?

Yes they do, but I know what your about to say I was refering to slightly more modern machinery. Any way im back to being a pert time instructor due to new job at the dealer in nottm thats trying to get hold of ya. PM sent.

The new freelander haldex is very good, certainly better than the old viscous diff.:thumbs:

a)... wrong "Jono":D
b)... No they don't.... not all.:thumbs:

a)... wrong "Jono":D

:eek: =) Oooppss disregard the pm then. :D