Radar

Hi Guys,

First of all, I must say I glad I found this group. I own a 4m Zodiac (not a rib) but am thinking of getting a rib in the near future.

Many of you go off shore in all kinds of weather. Do you ever see the need of having radar? What about auto pilot so you can kick back when the conditions are right?:)

Is this another wind up?? :eek:
If not cannot understand the relevance of a SIB and of a Radar and an autopilot :)
In my humble opinion you don't need them.
Just a good GPS map.
SIMPLE AND SHORT!!

GPS and map don't tell you where anyone else is. Radar could have it's uses, but it won't pick everything up.

Autopilot? Hah! Drive it youself. If it's too flat a ride, liven it up ;)

Matt

Originally posted by narked
GPS and map don't tell you where anyone else is. Radar could have it's uses, but it won't pick everything up.


Agree, but why you would travel in the middle of the night to need a radar?? :rolleyes:
If the the RIB is a 4-8 mtrs long you don't need a radar. If is a cabin RIB then is a different ball game.
In the Med you don't see many Radars on RIBs
http://www.gamers-forums.com/smilies/otn/other/program.gif

Size isn't everything, what you do with it is...

It's not impossible for a radar to be of use on a smaller boat. It all depends on what your using the boat for and in.

Matt

Originally posted by narked
Size isn't everything, what you do with it is...
It's not impossible for a radar to be of use on a smaller boat. It all depends on what your using the boat for and in.


Yes but have you considered radiation and mounting??
This is only a personal opinion, on a small boat a Radar is not as usefull as it is on larger craft where you will be spenmding sometime on it and even sail during the night or in adverse weather conditions.
But on a SIB or a small RIB it will not be of that much use (considering how much it costs).
May be I'm wrong with my reasoning though!!
http://216.40.249.192/mysmilies/contrib/dvv/cwmddd.gif

My thoughts are this.

I'm thinking of buying a 6.5 rib and using it off the coast of California and British Columbia were the fog can get very thick. Just thought radar would be nice to have so you can see approaching boats well ahead of time.

Originally posted by smokie
but am thinking of getting a rib in the near future.



Guys, guys, read the post properly.Smokie intends buying a larger rib!:rolleyes:
First of all, welcome to the forum Smokie. We have had a lengthy discussion about ribs and radars on a separate thread sometime ago, type radar in the search facility and try and make head or tail of everyone's viewpoints. As far as auto-pilot is concerned, personally I think it is a complete waste of time and money because I prefer helming the crafty myself. Now, if you were
Alan P about to circumnavigate the world, that would be a different matter entirely.

Out of interest, what did you have in mind to purchase as far as ribs are concerned?
Sorry, just read your post....if you are unfortunate to live in an area which is prone to fog, I would not hesitate in having a radar fitted, it comes down to safety which should never be compromised. Do not get caught in the trap of thinking once you have radar fitted you do not require a radar reflector. Even if you are transmitting, another craft will not necessarily pick you up on their radar. Invest in a good radar reflector as well as radar.

Thank you for your post Charles.

Have not decided a specific rib. My use will be water skiing, diving, fishing and possibly a cruise along the inside passage of BC. For that I require enough room at the bow to lay flat in case I have to spend the night on the boat. Looked at the Zodiac 650 but the bow space is a little tight.

OK you guys talked me out of an auto pilot.

Originally posted by smokie
....thinking of buying a 6.5 rib and using it off the coast of California and British Columbia were the fog can get very thick.

Then you deffinately need a Radar and as Charles said a Radar deflector so people can see you too!!

An autopilot?? Never used one on a RIB however reading Alan's book it seems that at speeds on rough seas does not work properly.
It all depends on what you want to do realy and how much money you are prepared to spend.

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:]

Hi Smokie & welcome

I was looking at radar a few months ago and its till on the books one I get all the other bits sorted out. (spent too much on other goodies:p )

The only real concern I have with radar is I dont like the idea of transmitting 1.5Kw or more 4 foot from my head :eek:

When i get round to fitting radar it will be on a mount about 3 foot above the A frame, this keeps it away from me and others and gives you greater range, which even at this height will be very short.

Go for a radar, their uses are limited on a rib, but when you need one you will be glad to nave one.

Regards Gary

Smokie

I have a radar and twice last year while making offshore passage hit thick fog ( < 20m ). Without it my concern for safety would have caused me to turn back.

With radar I carried on at 35 knots with the crew ranging up and down looking for boats and other objects.

Mounted on a RIB you wont get the distance but will be able to see anything that will hit you. All I need to know.

Cheers Mark

Welcome smokie.
I use both and they are my favorite instruments. Radar is the only instrument that actually shows you what is there. There have been times where a mass of low lying islands were impossible to distiguish from each other because, in a rib, your view is very low. The radar puts them in perspective. I've also missed seeing a boat, on a few occasions, but the radar has alerted me. If you've been out on the water for a while, you are likely to get brain fade and the radar is invaluable. In mist, how else are you going to know what's there? Once you've got one, you'll find all sorts of situations where it will be useful. The same goes for the auto pilot. Cruising at night, set the auto pilot to read your gps waypoint and watch out on your radar. Keep a lookout as well of course. If you need to pee in rough conditions, set the pilot and set the engine to low speed. You can keep the boat's head to sea to prevent you being at the mercy of the waves at a critical time! Like the radar, you'll find all sorts of situations where it's helpful. It can be particularly useful if you boat single handed. If you have the dosh, buy them. You won't be sorry. Ignore advice from those who have had very little experience of that which they are advising about. Look out, there's always a smart arse about. Hope this helps the decision.
JW.

Thanks for the advice JWalker. Makes sense.

Originally posted by smokie
Do you ever see the need of having radar?

Whilst I prefer to keep my boating to good weather there is always the possiblity of something going wrong or weather closing in and you finding yourself in a pea souper.

So if I had the money then a radar I would have.

Sadly for me it will have to wait but it is on my list of wants.

If it gets used but once to avoid other boats/ships/objects then to me it would be worth every penny.

Actually, thank you to everyone that contributed. Very good input. I look at radar as 4-wheel drive on truck. You may not always need it, but when you do you're glad to have it.

It will be good to know that if the fog does come, I'll be able to continue safely on my journey.

I have been reading th last few posts on Radars and fog etc, and was amazed to read some one in vis of less than 20m's happily traveling at 35 kts!!!!!!!!!

No 1 rule in fog guys even with a radar SLOW down.

things will creap up very quickly in poor vis

Did i mention that I had a beer in one hand and a scotch egg in the other while doing 35kn in fog !:eek:

Cheers

Mark

While the female passenger was doing something completly illegal!
On a positive note, the radar is only as good as the oporater. reading what is on the screen at anything more than 10 knots in difficult conditions can be quite hard.
If I had to make a choice and "drop" either my chart plotter or radar, the radar would be over the side. A decent high speed plotter with a set of decent charts will allow you to drive the boat blind if you have too. Linked to a decent autopilot you can ( and we have on many occasions) driven theboat into strange harbours electronicaly using the chart plotter as a head up display. Of course, it goes without saying that we still have a man in the bow with a radio link just in case and my boating is somewhat different to most, but how I long to turn the clock back.Welcome aboard Smokie Alan P

Originally posted by MarkWildey
Did i mention that I had a beer in one hand and a scotch egg in the other while doing 35kn in fog !:eek: That's OK, because the big ships don't go out in the fog.

Came back from Cherbourg in a pea souper a couple of years back and didn't see a single soul out on the water. They obviously all stayed at home! :D

John

Personally I don't like fog at sea and prefer to use seamanship and say no thanks, next time. That from doing it with a compass, chart and mark one eyeball.
On a yacht, the way that sound travels (especially breaking waves on a shore that you cant see), I find it spooky!!!

In terms of fog and equipment, I'd take the radar reflector first, the plotter second and then radar. I think that is the correct order for most boats not just RIB's on a safety and practicality basis. Radar is a luxury on a RIB's, but if you have a RIB big enough go for it.

Couple of points

1.
How do you keep a good lookout, without standing up and the radar cooking your head?
Most A frames I have seen are not that high, certainly not many are strong enough for a radar bracket 2m+ higher than the deck.

2.
Perhaps it is a wise point to explain to the crew how to work the radar!

As most of us cant do two things at once and if you want to go at a safe speed, the driver needs to listen and look around while the crew monitors the radar.

On ships some accident have occured due to what I think was called radar blindness or saturation. The person looked at the radar so much that they lost contact of the reality around them.

Now with a chart plotter on hand its less likely you will be lost, but you are looking down at a screen rather than in front or even behind.

I mention behind because there's always someone fast than you, so mind the sea cat when crossing the channel!.
For that matter, some container ships will do 25 knots up the channel if they are late also, so in fog they might slow to say 20 knots.

So as I said, all the sameI would rather stay in bed.
Daft i know, its only low cloud

Tiger

Its worth bearing in mind that once you fit a Radar you are responsible to use it efficiently at sea,in law in that you must keep an adequate look out and use all means available.


There are some good target enhancers that can help in order that other boats may see you.But obviously dont help you see them.

Also cos these are powerd by your batteries they have there limitations.Were a big ships radar opperates on x band and Y band these Target enhancers only opperate on one band at present,so its critical to have a good radar reflector.

In fog or heavy rain you will not catch us at anything over 10 knts as Mr P says.

If your going for Radar then I would recomend the Combind/Plotter units with overlay. They make it easier to recognise the position of land or boats in relation to your own ships position.Anything that makes things easier at sea is a big plus point for me,especielly when its a bit of a dog with the weather.

As far as Microwaves go then havnt got a clue,I suppose on a wheelhouse rib you can put some lineing in the roof but have to be carefull as its the last place you want extra weight as it increases the centre of gravity,and may make her top heavy depending on material weight ect.

Good luck and ask around for best Radar/plotter :)

Yes, the frame to support the radar scanner has to be at a sensible height. But, I mount the frame not at the stern but just behind the seating so the beam is still very narrow where it passes over crews' heads. A frame at this position also has other benefits too.
JW.

Still have slight problem with a 10 feet high radome having a horizon of 3.5 miles, (5 feet 2.5 miles), 30 knots, <4 minutes - if the target is low and static. If its higher - more, if it's moving towards you - less. If you're coxing the boat as opposed to looking at the radar - bang. Useful if you have a dedicated crew, but agree with Alan, fairly well down the list of need.

I think its fair to say you're absolutely right,If its clear you're going to do 30knts+ and for short range targets the eyeball is the best , and you will be running Radar for any larger targets offshore.

If visibility is down then speed should be down and then its eyeball and luggs even more but at a reduced speed,With your Radar on in the hope it will pick stuff up you cant see.

You can totaly navigate with radar and a paper chart only,but it is at displacement speed ,and its an eye opener

It is well known that the best thing in bad visibility is your eyeball and a pair of elephant ears. With a radar in the background as a bit of comfort especially when you hear that dreaded swishing noise that gets louder in fog at night as it comes your way.

Plot its position and get out the way.
:)

Just a few points.

So. Your eyes are lower that the scanner. You can't see as far as the radar can.
Are everyones eyes 20-20?
If you wear specks and have an open rib in the rain, how far can you see clearly?
Most targets that matter are much taller than 5ft. Not all, but most.
The assumption that a collision will be directly head to head is a bit iffy. Are you happy to power into the side of an ocean liner in a fog?
You can use the radar for much more that just collision avoidance.
JW.

I have to say that im for Radar as a Nav aid,given the choice there are situations where a Radar is the main nav tool for saftey,the conditons are those that big offshore ribs experience,that travel maybe day and night.

On a small rib that only ventures offshore in good conditons and maybe in company then it proberbly isnt that significant.Im of the belief that the conditions encounted in the Irish Sea if it is used as a cruising ground offshore then its a must as are other pieces of kit.

Its a combination of imformation that gets us from A to B and as big ribs start to become recognised as the ultimate cruising tools for the future ,then Radar will also be recognised as standard issue for these sort of boats.

As you say if you havnt got 20/20 vision and your vision is slightly impared by the conditions then that is even more a good reason to fit radar.

Any voyage takeing a boat offshore that could encounter a different weather pattern whilst out at sea should serieosly consider Radar,not as a extra but as a necessity.

Large ribs who go it alone cant depend on others ,therefore I am sold on this piece of kit,when used correctly,it also transmits your possition to other ships and is the best radar enhancer you will ever get.

The problem is you dont no what you missed or missed you if you havnt got one.

The real point here is you cant do 30+ knts in fog and you wouldnt dream of it,as if you did you wont be here for long.And neither will you crew.

Hi folks

Agree with whats is being said here apart from one point.

The use of "a pair of elephant ears".

On a yacht your ears can detect things in fog etc well before you see them because its quite. Not so on a RIB. I belive your ears are next to useless while the engine is running and you are underway at anything more than tickover at best.

Regards Gary

Garygee Your correct as far as doing any speed is concernd.

In my discription I was relating it to a real Pea sooper,the sort of thing where you can only see ,maybe 10 mtrs in front of the ships head.Its happend twice to us ,once we were out with a Yachtmaster instructer whos fan belt came off,and he couldnt start the engine, east of the Kish Bank.He hadnt got a spare so pop went the radio,and pop went the radar,and plotter after running them for an hour,as he couldnt start the engine.It was3 am and we were in the main shipping channel.

He then decided that he thought he could see a flashing white off the port bow,so he promptly stuck the avon redcrest over the side and jumped in with no life jacket on in the hope of towing the 17 ton yacht nearer the light to confirm our position,plop went the 2.2 Tohatsu for about two minits untill it to ran out of juice.We happily listend to the Swish Swish and thud thud all night long as we drifted around,We must of decided as we were having such fun to stay up all night,sleep just didnt seem to bothere us any more!.

We have a single very quiet 4 stroke thirtey wing engine with controls on the back of the wheelhouse and a seat for trolling at 8 knts,thats where I will be if we are unfortunat enough to hit a big Fog.My crew on the Radar shouting out if they see any targets.I want to be outside in Big fog,not in a wheelhouse.Man on the Bow, crew on the radar me outside and doing 8 knts max.

Im sure some will disagree but we all run our boats different and if you have ever owned a yacht and sailed into fog ,you will hear a boat before you see her.Thats what happend to us on two occasions, any more speed is unsafe to me as we would of truly hit other boats,if they hadnt shown up on radar.

I suppose the other thing to always carry is a spare fan belt. It may be more important than a Radar.
:)

Here's an idea. The Coast Guard have the radar and know where c. everyone is. They communicate this to the GPS satellites who update everyone with a GPS. Slightly simplified, I know, but in theory....?

Galeforce,ee,er, Im not quite with you can you explain what you mean? Im not a deep thinker so maybe I missed something here.

:)

well crazyhorse at the moment a gps will tell you where you are from signals received from satellites orbiting the earth. You have maps installed in your unit and so you can navigate. However you don't know where other craft are 'cos they're not on your map and if it's foggy or whatever , you could crash. What I'm proposing, or enquiring about, is whether the satellites could also give the reference points of other craft so your gps unit could show them on the screen. This info could be got from, say, a radar sweep. The idea being that when you look at your gps you see not only islands, coastline etc. but other boats.

Originally posted by gaelforce
What I'm proposing, or enquiring about, is whether the satellites could also give the reference points of other craft so your gps unit could show them on the screen.

Am I correct in saying that the airforce, the navy and the army have this facility already??
However, is this not availiable to the public due to the fact that the US (No1), UK (the follower) etc etc administrations fears of Mr Bin L (or someone like him any way) knowing where their vehicles/planes/boats are and blasting them up in the sky?? =)
BOOOOOOOOOOOM

All Solas vessels are required to AIS transponders with implementation ongoing until 2007.

AIS - Automatic Identity Transponder

This unit sends ID, position, heading, rate of turn, length, beam, draught, cargo, destination etc via VHF frquency to recienving AIS unit. This data can then be displayed graphically on ECdis screen.

Advantage over Radar - more accurate info, positive ID, instant CPA / TCPA info, Radar with arpa take 1 min to assess and 3 mins to confirm CPA / TCPA.

So Manos, yes this systemn is already in use on many high speed craft and will be on all SOLAS vessels by 2007.

However, recreational and fishing craft under 24m are not required to have it.

Radar will continue to be used by large craft so make sure you have a damn good reflector.

Cheers
Karl

..and I only thought that it was ONLY used by the military :)
Sounds very good now that you're saying that the public can use it too ;)

Hi there folks,

You will be talking to your GPS for a long time if you want it to send a signal with your position on it.

They are Satelite Receivers not Tranceivers.

Your vhf Gmdss radio sends a gps position to another vhf tranceiver worked out from your gps position received from a satelite.Maybe coast guard run it through there radar to give them imfo,only for those running Gmdss sets that are linked to Gps.

Whether this other vessel position imfo/track can be linked to show a position on your radar is something I dont know.I would think it can.It will only show when he is transmitting,so will be intermitent,I presume his imfo/track will be Based on you transmitting at the time.

This new Transponder will show on radar providing you have power,and will be a extra cost as it will be an extra unit working independantly from existing kit and it will transmit all the time and bye the sounds of it update constantly your current possition to othere vessels, whilst it has power I presume and send the constant signal out on a designated frequencie.
If it uses Very high Frequencie radio waves and they are the same frequencies as a vhf channel, then maybe your existing kit may recieve the imfo/track and plot it on your radar screen.

I suppose with it being a continues transmitter it will give a continues possition and heading,speed,track etc.

Who knows.?
:)